That is the recognised way to split herds nowadays when necessary- allowing mothers and daughters to stay together.
Australasia Asian elephant breeding program
- Thread starter Spixii
- Start date
That is the recognised way to split herds nowadays when necessary- allowing mothers and daughters to stay together.
Whereas I hate to dampen spirits, it is a far cry to claim that Australasian zoos are the most successful ones at producing elephant calves as it stands. That claim might be fair if the time span were say 15-20 years and the number of calves produced by the founding stock was somewhat the greater (even though I full well know that AI has been used in good measure here).
However, the ZAA program has the benefit of being able to take on board what has been learned in the last 20-25 years of elephant reproduction in captivity and build on that.
As the ZAA program progresses I would welcome the zoos involved to invest more in more natural breeding of their elephants in order to have a springboard later on. Bulls learn by example / mistake and if they do not have that opportunity to experience mating and reproductive behaviour in older bulls / females first hand, they may never be able to reproduce in the first place. We have seen too many ... in particular bulls ... fail to ever reproduce in Europe / US as they simply do not know how to mate. Whether infertility or stress are important factors in that is up in the air (see reproductive issues in gorillas f.e.).
The program might also benefit from - as would the EEP and SSP programs - from an exchange of young bulls in order to create a reservoir of future breeding males.
However, the ZAA program has the benefit of being able to take on board what has been learned in the last 20-25 years of elephant reproduction in captivity and build on that.
As the ZAA program progresses I would welcome the zoos involved to invest more in more natural breeding of their elephants in order to have a springboard later on. Bulls learn by example / mistake and if they do not have that opportunity to experience mating and reproductive behaviour in older bulls / females first hand, they may never be able to reproduce in the first place. We have seen too many ... in particular bulls ... fail to ever reproduce in Europe / US as they simply do not know how to mate. Whether infertility or stress are important factors in that is up in the air (see reproductive issues in gorillas f.e.).
The program might also benefit from - as would the EEP and SSP programs - from an exchange of young bulls in order to create a reservoir of future breeding males.
Last edited:
New quarantine import requirements for importing elephants for review
Biosecurity Advice 2013/15 - Draft policy review of the importation of zoo elephants from approved countries – comments are invited by 22 July 2013
For further information please go to the website: Biosecurity Risk Analysis - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Wonder what importation is being considered? New bull or more females?
Biosecurity Advice 2013/15 - Draft policy review of the importation of zoo elephants from approved countries – comments are invited by 22 July 2013
For further information please go to the website: Biosecurity Risk Analysis - Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry
Wonder what importation is being considered? New bull or more females?
Zoos Victoria had a relationship with the Rotterdam Zoo as of 1999, when they were going to send three breeding females to Australia (I'm unsure as to why it fell through). I would imagine the relationship has maintained itself-and as the EEP coordinator the Australasia program could receive stock from anywhere in Europe....
In addition the program has connections with Ayutthaya Royal elephant kraal and Wildlife Reserves Singapore. Not to mention Aukland's recent agreement with Pinnawala.
In addition the program has connections with Ayutthaya Royal elephant kraal and Wildlife Reserves Singapore. Not to mention Aukland's recent agreement with Pinnawala.
I agree with a lot of the comments made on this thread. A bachelor herd at TWPZ would be great and the transfer of Luk Chai (2009), Pathi Harn (2010), Ongard (2010) and Sanook (2013) would free up valuable space at both the Taronga and Melbourne Zoo's. Of course, for this to happen, as mentioned, it would require the transfer of the two aging females maybe to Australia Zoo (a retirment facility sounds like a great idea) and the transfer of the African Elephant female. As mentioned, the transfer of a virus between the two species is a very serious concern and part of the reason Auckland Zoo wouldn't take on Mila (Jumbo). I'm not sure where she could potentially go within Australasia but being an ageing female, she may have passed on before the young males need to be transfered. Is there no other African elephants in Australia she could be housed with?
Melbourne Zoo is making amazing progress, I'm really impressed that Dokoon is expecting again this year, so soon after Mali's birth in 2010. By Dokoon's standards, Thong Dee, **** Tip and Pak Boon at Taronga should all expecting again but I haven't heard any news on this. Things seem to be progressing a bit slow at Taronga and it is extremely dissapointing to hear about Tang Mo.
Melbourne Zoo is making amazing progress, I'm really impressed that Dokoon is expecting again this year, so soon after Mali's birth in 2010. By Dokoon's standards, Thong Dee, **** Tip and Pak Boon at Taronga should all expecting again but I haven't heard any news on this. Things seem to be progressing a bit slow at Taronga and it is extremely dissapointing to hear about Tang Mo.
I know most of you are up to date with the Australasia Asian Elephant Program, but I thought I would consolidate all of the information released in the press since the last update!
Births:
Man Jai, Bong Su x Dokkoon, born 12/08/13 (via AI)
Deaths:
Sanook, Bong Su x Num Oi, died 12/03/13
Transfers:
Sabu was transferred from Australia Zoo to Bullen's Animal World in October of 2013... Would AZ be interested in importing breeding stock to occupy its immense exhibit?
Thong Dee, Luk Chai, **** Tip, Pathi Harn, and Gung will be transferred to TWPZ- Late 2014/early 2015
Possible pregnancies:
Tang Mo (AGAIN!!)
Num Oi- AI'd in August, pregnancy will be confirmed in November.
Also if anyone is interested the Melbourne Zoo elephant exhibit has been listed on Zoolex, and includes the site plan of the complex
ZooLex Site Plan
Births:
Man Jai, Bong Su x Dokkoon, born 12/08/13 (via AI)
Deaths:
Sanook, Bong Su x Num Oi, died 12/03/13
Transfers:
Sabu was transferred from Australia Zoo to Bullen's Animal World in October of 2013... Would AZ be interested in importing breeding stock to occupy its immense exhibit?
Thong Dee, Luk Chai, **** Tip, Pathi Harn, and Gung will be transferred to TWPZ- Late 2014/early 2015
Possible pregnancies:
Tang Mo (AGAIN!!)
Num Oi- AI'd in August, pregnancy will be confirmed in November.
Also if anyone is interested the Melbourne Zoo elephant exhibit has been listed on Zoolex, and includes the site plan of the complex
ZooLex Site Plan
Breeding Plans 2015
Taronga Zoo: With Porntip (1992), Thong Dee (1997), Luk Chai (2009) and Pathi Harn (2010) moving to TWPZ in the next three months, does anyone know what the plans are for breeding the females? I heard AI was attempted with Porntip last year (unsuccessfully) which seems crazy when they have a proven bull they could breed naturally from (and increase the chances of a female calf)? Are they attempting to breed from Gung and Thong Dee prior to Thong Dee's departure? Maybe they will continue AI with Porntip and breed Thong Dee to Pathi Harn when they move to TWPZ? He's apparently developing quite fast for a bull elephant. I'm guessing due to the TB issue, Pak Boon will not be breeding again and I'm not holding my breath on Tang Mo ever falling pregnant, she's now 16 years old and could well go the same way as Permai at Perth Zoo.
Melbourne Zoo: I was pleased to hear of Num Oi's pregnancy last year. Her calf is due in 2016. Hopefully Dokkoon (23 years old) and Kulab (15 years old) will be bred from again soon.
Taronga Zoo: With Porntip (1992), Thong Dee (1997), Luk Chai (2009) and Pathi Harn (2010) moving to TWPZ in the next three months, does anyone know what the plans are for breeding the females? I heard AI was attempted with Porntip last year (unsuccessfully) which seems crazy when they have a proven bull they could breed naturally from (and increase the chances of a female calf)? Are they attempting to breed from Gung and Thong Dee prior to Thong Dee's departure? Maybe they will continue AI with Porntip and breed Thong Dee to Pathi Harn when they move to TWPZ? He's apparently developing quite fast for a bull elephant. I'm guessing due to the TB issue, Pak Boon will not be breeding again and I'm not holding my breath on Tang Mo ever falling pregnant, she's now 16 years old and could well go the same way as Permai at Perth Zoo.
Melbourne Zoo: I was pleased to hear of Num Oi's pregnancy last year. Her calf is due in 2016. Hopefully Dokkoon (23 years old) and Kulab (15 years old) will be bred from again soon.
My idea for the Asian Elephant Breeding Programme:
Melbourne Zoo to send Bong Su to Perth Zoo to retire from breeding
Melbourne Zoo to send Ongard and Manjai to Auckland Zoo for breeding
Perth Zoo to send Putra Mas to Melbourne Zoo for breeding
Benefits:
Melbourne Zoo currently have four cows of reproductive age and a mature bull who can only breed through AI. If this bull is sent to Perth Zoo, he can either be retired from breeding or still contribute to the breeding programme though AI like he has done at Melbourne Zoo.
Perth Zoo’s bull can have the chance to breed naturally with the cows at Melbourne Zoo. Natural breeding is less bias towards producing male calves like AI is.
Auckland Zoo receive two young bulls they can breed naturally to Anjali and Nandi (if/when she arrives).
Limitations:
Melbourne’s two young bulls turn 4 and 7 at the end of this year. Manjai should ideally be at least 5 before separated from his mother, so they should not be exported before the second half of 2018. The main risk age for EEHV is 2-5 years so he should be at minimal risk of contracting it from any new females at Auckland if they are carrying it. Delaying the export of the three bulls at Melbourne (which would allow the import of Putra Mas) is delaying the potential to be breeding from the four cows.
Auckland Zoo has previously discussed plans to import two bulls for breeding but is this still on the cards? Do they have the finances and space to construct an exhibit for the two young males in the next 18 months and could they provide the facilitates in the future to separate the bulls if they can no longer be housed together amicably?
Melbourne Zoo to send Bong Su to Perth Zoo to retire from breeding
Melbourne Zoo to send Ongard and Manjai to Auckland Zoo for breeding
Perth Zoo to send Putra Mas to Melbourne Zoo for breeding
Benefits:
Melbourne Zoo currently have four cows of reproductive age and a mature bull who can only breed through AI. If this bull is sent to Perth Zoo, he can either be retired from breeding or still contribute to the breeding programme though AI like he has done at Melbourne Zoo.
Perth Zoo’s bull can have the chance to breed naturally with the cows at Melbourne Zoo. Natural breeding is less bias towards producing male calves like AI is.
Auckland Zoo receive two young bulls they can breed naturally to Anjali and Nandi (if/when she arrives).
Limitations:
Melbourne’s two young bulls turn 4 and 7 at the end of this year. Manjai should ideally be at least 5 before separated from his mother, so they should not be exported before the second half of 2018. The main risk age for EEHV is 2-5 years so he should be at minimal risk of contracting it from any new females at Auckland if they are carrying it. Delaying the export of the three bulls at Melbourne (which would allow the import of Putra Mas) is delaying the potential to be breeding from the four cows.
Auckland Zoo has previously discussed plans to import two bulls for breeding but is this still on the cards? Do they have the finances and space to construct an exhibit for the two young males in the next 18 months and could they provide the facilitates in the future to separate the bulls if they can no longer be housed together amicably?
Additional idea:
If the enclosure at Melbourne Zoo is no longer considered large enough for five adult females and future calves down the line, Dokoon and Mali could potentially be sent to Taronga Western Plains Zoo. Taronga Western Plains Zoo could be developed as the main breeding hub with Pak Boon, Tukta and Pak Boon’s new calf (due next month) also imported as Tukta can not breed with her father at Taronga. Luk Chai, Pathi Harn would be kept on as the breeding males, as well as Thong Dee and Sabai in the female herd, while **** Tip could return to Taronga to breed with Gung and keep Tang Mo company.
This would result in the following at Taronga Western Plains Zoo:
Adult Females:
Pak Boon (1992) + new calf due May 2017
Dokoon (1993)
Thong Dee (1997) + male calf born November 2016
Mali (2010)
Tukta (2010)
Adult Males:
Luk Chai (2009)
Pathi Harn (2010)
Benefits:
Frees up spaces at Taronga and Melbourne Zoo and allows females like Tukta to breed naturally with unrelated bulls.
Establishes a large herd at Taronga Western Plains Zoo and allows for an expansion of the Asian elephant population in the region.
Limitations:
Do Taronga Western Plains Zoo have the space and finances to accommodate a herd this size (with the intention of breeding)?
Would Dokoon adjust to a new herd?
If the enclosure at Melbourne Zoo is no longer considered large enough for five adult females and future calves down the line, Dokoon and Mali could potentially be sent to Taronga Western Plains Zoo. Taronga Western Plains Zoo could be developed as the main breeding hub with Pak Boon, Tukta and Pak Boon’s new calf (due next month) also imported as Tukta can not breed with her father at Taronga. Luk Chai, Pathi Harn would be kept on as the breeding males, as well as Thong Dee and Sabai in the female herd, while **** Tip could return to Taronga to breed with Gung and keep Tang Mo company.
This would result in the following at Taronga Western Plains Zoo:
Adult Females:
Pak Boon (1992) + new calf due May 2017
Dokoon (1993)
Thong Dee (1997) + male calf born November 2016
Mali (2010)
Tukta (2010)
Adult Males:
Luk Chai (2009)
Pathi Harn (2010)
Benefits:
Frees up spaces at Taronga and Melbourne Zoo and allows females like Tukta to breed naturally with unrelated bulls.
Establishes a large herd at Taronga Western Plains Zoo and allows for an expansion of the Asian elephant population in the region.
Limitations:
Do Taronga Western Plains Zoo have the space and finances to accommodate a herd this size (with the intention of breeding)?
Would Dokoon adjust to a new herd?
zooboy28
Well-Known Member
A couple of thoughts @Zoofan15:
-I don't think Auckland has the space or finances for two males, and suspect AI is the way they will attempt breeding. (I'm also concerned by the idea of breeding two distinct subspecies together - unless taxonomy of Asian elephants has changed recently?)
-I think Melbourne may be more inclined to develop a Asian Elephant herd at Werribee rather than send too many individuals to TWPZ.
-I don't think Auckland has the space or finances for two males, and suspect AI is the way they will attempt breeding. (I'm also concerned by the idea of breeding two distinct subspecies together - unless taxonomy of Asian elephants has changed recently?)
-I think Melbourne may be more inclined to develop a Asian Elephant herd at Werribee rather than send too many individuals to TWPZ.
I know two males were in their original plan (which included a large number of females) but yes, I believe this has been downsized to importing the two females and breeding from them to increase the herd. Not a bad alternative as it will mean making good use of the females they have, not like Kulab who is staring down the barrell of a 10 year gap between her calves if she is bred from in the next couple of years.
It'd be good to see Werribee Open Range Zoo hold Asian elephants, as well as Monarto Zoo.
I hope Auckland are able to hold a bull and can avoid AI if possible.
Two subspecies? Are you meaning because the Melbourne females are from Thailand and Putra Mas being from Malaysia? He was the sire for Num Oi's calf born last year.
Last edited:
What Zooboy is referring is the fact that Auklands cow(s) are the Sri Lankan subspecies (E.m.maximus) while the younger males are of the mainland subspecies (E.m.indicus)
In this situation, this subspecies cross has occurred many times in both North America and Europe. There are presently at least six 50/50 animals and eight 25% maximus (2nd generation hybrids) in North America and at least eleven 50/50 animals and 19 25% animals (6 of which are 3 way hybrids! 25% maximus, 50%indicus and 25% borneensis) and even a single 12.5% animal, the result of one of the 25% second generation cows breeding with a pure indicus bull.
Overall these animals are obviously very reproductively viable, and in general they show a fairly even blend of the two subspecies, more so in the bulls than the cows. The bulls generally all have tusks, however in the initial 50% hybrids, their tusks generally remain fairly short and thin, never reaching the sizes seen in the pure indicus. The eldest 25% males are just now reaching 10+ years old so only time will tell how their tusks will grow.
zooboy28
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is what I was getting at - the import by Auckland of a Sri Lankan female (and potentially more), when the rest of the elephants in Australasia (including the other female at Auckland) are of the mainland subspecies (I didn't know there was a Sumatran bull in the region @Zoofan15, but your edit suggests this is not the case?). With the recent importation and success of the Australian program, I feel it would be better if Auckland was more in sync with that, and had imported mainland cows, either from Asia or Australia.
I don;t believe Auckland has the current capacity to grow their herd by more than one female in the next few years, their focus will be elsewhere with the massive investment in Wild Indonesia. If they cannot secure space for a larger herd, it may be better long-term for Auckland's females to move to Australia and the Zoo (and therefore country) go out of elephants, or instead acquire a surplus male or two for display. However, having a solitary animal on display is not ideal from a visitors perspective.
Thank you everyone for your replies. I thought I read one that Putra Mas and Permai were of a different sub species to the other Asian elephants in Australia which was the reason for them being hairier, I must be mistaken if they are indeed the same as the other elephants in Australia.
Auckland Zoo have stated they want to breed from Anjalee. They said in 2015 that this would be either this year or next (2017/2018) I believe. I wasn't aware Anjalee (and Nandi) were not of the same subspecies as the other elephants in the region. It will be interesting to see if they're happy to breed from the bulls in Australia or seek other alternatives.
@Hyak_II From what you've said I get the impression that hybridisation isn't a major concern in Europe and North America. Personally I can't see the harm but any decision made now will have long lasting consequences with these being such long lived animals. It's possible 50 years from now, interbreeding the different subspecies will be as unthinkable as breeding a Sumatran orangutan with a Bornean orangutan. Being a region that is relatively new to the Asian elephant breeding programme, Australasia has the oppotunity to maintain lines of separate subspecies.
I agree with
@zooboy28 that Auckland Zoo probably should have imported elephants of a subspecies that is inkeeping with the region. Especially given the lengths and hassle they're going through to import these animals.
Auckland Zoo have stated they want to breed from Anjalee. They said in 2015 that this would be either this year or next (2017/2018) I believe. I wasn't aware Anjalee (and Nandi) were not of the same subspecies as the other elephants in the region. It will be interesting to see if they're happy to breed from the bulls in Australia or seek other alternatives.
@Hyak_II From what you've said I get the impression that hybridisation isn't a major concern in Europe and North America. Personally I can't see the harm but any decision made now will have long lasting consequences with these being such long lived animals. It's possible 50 years from now, interbreeding the different subspecies will be as unthinkable as breeding a Sumatran orangutan with a Bornean orangutan. Being a region that is relatively new to the Asian elephant breeding programme, Australasia has the oppotunity to maintain lines of separate subspecies.
I agree with
@zooboy28 that Auckland Zoo probably should have imported elephants of a subspecies that is inkeeping with the region. Especially given the lengths and hassle they're going through to import these animals.