FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
That's fascinating. What does 'later' mean here baboon?
Giant Pandas And Their Pulling Power
- Thread starter Brum
- Start date
That's fascinating. What does 'later' mean here baboon?
According to historical records, during the 6th century, the Empress Wu, Zetian, of Tang Dynasty, had sent a pair of giant pandas to Japan as a national gift, and at least during that time, the panda was named "White bear". And in Sichuan, even now some locals call panda "White bear"; the "Bai Xiong Ping", where the panda research station of Tangjiahe Reserve located, means "White bear highland" in Chinese.
My first touch of ancient China panda tale was when I was reading the classical Chinese novel "Annals of the Kingdoms in the East Zhou Dynasty", which described the historical events happened between 8th centruy BC to 3rd century BC. There was a story about a warrior fighting against a giant panda, and the panda was described as a powerful beast and could even eat the iron. In later historical records, the description of panda was more similar to its true character, as the references in Han Dynasty (1st century AD) described the giant panda was a peaceful animal, and was the most precious species in the emperor's zoo. During Jin Dynasty of 3rd century AD, the panda flag was used as a armistice sign in the war, because people believe panda was a peaceful animal.
This is an interesting thread in that it shows there is no right, wrong, or definative answer to the question of why Giant Pandas are so popular. Memphis has kept them for about 14 years now, with no babies produced, and they still are the most popular attraction. (Maybe the new hippo exhibit is about equal.) My own opinion for their popularity is that they come from China which is still a mysterious country and culture to most people outside of eastern Aisa, and they provide a glimpse into that mystery. Also, they are unique (along with polar bears) from all other bears, not just their color, but in their body shape and behaviour too. If you watch children, they all can identify a panda and polar bear, but group all the others as just bears. Additionally, go into the toy stores and look at the teddy bears. Almost all of them are molded after a Giant Panda in form. You don't see teddy bears with long snouts, and this has been going on decades. Finally, do not underestimate the influence of the Disney movies like the Kung Fu Panda series. Yes, these are aimed at children, but adults take the children to the movies and also far in love with them. Look what The Lion King did for the merkats.
Giant Panda Question:
I was reading online that the Smithsonian National Zoo acquired pandas in the 1970s following a visit to China by President Nixon and his wife. The first lady expressed her fondness for the creatures and a pair were gifted to the USA a few months later. No ten year loans, no $1 million donation required for each year, no stipulation any cubs born would remain the proprety of China and must return within four years etc. They were simply a gift. I believe other zoos like London also owned their pandas (in the legal sense) and indeed colloborated with the National Zoo in an attempt to breed. If attempts like this (and of that by zoos in a similar situation) had been successful and cubs prodcued that survived to adulthood (several cubs died in infancy at the National Zoo), could these cubs and their descendents have founded a captive population free of the many restrictions placed on 'loaned' pandas we see in zoos today? Does anyone know what other zoos apart from the two mentioned above actually owned their own pandas? I'd imagine the number is very small, and of course the population would quickly be redcued to inbreeding if they didn't want to acquire pandas on loan from China so it's entirely a theoretical question.
I was reading online that the Smithsonian National Zoo acquired pandas in the 1970s following a visit to China by President Nixon and his wife. The first lady expressed her fondness for the creatures and a pair were gifted to the USA a few months later. No ten year loans, no $1 million donation required for each year, no stipulation any cubs born would remain the proprety of China and must return within four years etc. They were simply a gift. I believe other zoos like London also owned their pandas (in the legal sense) and indeed colloborated with the National Zoo in an attempt to breed. If attempts like this (and of that by zoos in a similar situation) had been successful and cubs prodcued that survived to adulthood (several cubs died in infancy at the National Zoo), could these cubs and their descendents have founded a captive population free of the many restrictions placed on 'loaned' pandas we see in zoos today? Does anyone know what other zoos apart from the two mentioned above actually owned their own pandas? I'd imagine the number is very small, and of course the population would quickly be redcued to inbreeding if they didn't want to acquire pandas on loan from China so it's entirely a theoretical question.
Chapultepec Zoo in Mexico City had the only pandas not owned by China for a long time... in fact, they might still have one or two elderly bears that hold that distinction.
I'm sure there were other zoos that held them as gifts rather than by the loan system, but I'm not at all confident that it would have been enough to form a viable captive population without China's assistance... and that's assuming that all of the zoos who had them could have reproduced them. Even today breeding pandas is somewhat difficult; back then it was much more so.
I'm sure there were other zoos that held them as gifts rather than by the loan system, but I'm not at all confident that it would have been enough to form a viable captive population without China's assistance... and that's assuming that all of the zoos who had them could have reproduced them. Even today breeding pandas is somewhat difficult; back then it was much more so.
There were pandas as you speak of at Smithsonian National Zoo, London Zoo, Mexico City Zoo, and I think in Berlin and Moscow. There were several attempts to set up panda matings with this group of pandas in the 1970s - pandas moved all over the world between these zoos. Obviously it didn't work out. The Washington pandas had at least one cub, but it didn't survive past a few days (or maybe even hours?). As you point out all of these pandas were direct gifts from China to these countries and the captive population would have been organized differently than the current China panda loan program.
The current program evolved from heavily criticized "rent-a-panda" programs in the 1980s where pandas were rented out to zoos for short-term exhibition not unlike animatronic dinosaur shows at zoos today are. A lot of money was generated by these short-term loans and much of it ended up not going to conservation or panda welfare. There were concerns about how the pandas were being treated as exhibition items instead of endangered wildlife. The US Fish and Wildlife Service banned these exhibitions at one point and the modern conservation loan program was developed.
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Didn't Toledo have a lawsuit issued or something involving giant pandas and the "rent-a-panda" program in the 80s?
Chapultepec Zoo in Mexico received a pair from China in 1975, from which they bred eight young. The first one, in 1980, was the first panda ever bred outside China. Unfortunately it did not survive to adulthood, being accidentally crushed by the mother after eight days. All the pandas bred at Chapultepec were the "property" of the zoo, and four survived to adulthood. Only one of the offspring bred (via artificial insemination). The two pandas they have now are a male and female bred at the zoo (the female is the one produced by AI).
So the zoo's total population has been seven adult pandas.
Chapultepec zoo has held 12 pandas. Currently it has 2 female pandas shuan shuan and xin xin. They aré not owned by the chinese government. Xin xin is the daughter of chia chia the london zoo panda. Moré information on the Chapultepec pandas in the Wikipedia article zoologico de chapultepec. This year shuan shuan will be 30 and xin xin 27
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I thought Shuan Shuan was a male, my mistake. And I had read a confused article saying that Xin Xin was produced from AI, but that seems to not be the case.
However, which is the last panda to make twelve? There was the original pair in 1975 who had seven babies (four of whom survived to adulthood), plus the baby of Tohui to make a total of eight young born (totalling ten pandas or seven adults). Chia Chia on loan from London Zoo makes eleven pandas (I wasn't counting him in my post as he was just on loan). Which is the twelfth one?
I think time spent reading conservation-related posts on tumblr is a waste
In all seriousness, the giant panda's conservation status has improved with their efforts, and they are no longer as immediately threatened with extinction as they once were... so in that sense, their efforts were at least somewhat successful. In terms of the money that was spent on giant pandas overall, I shudder to think how many species could have been saved with a fraction of it.... but was it really wasted if that money wasn't going to fund lesser-known species anyway?
I think time spent reading conservation-related posts on tumblr is a waste
In all seriousness, the giant panda's conservation status has improved with their efforts, and they are no longer as immediately threatened with extinction as they once were... so in that sense, their efforts were at least somewhat successful. In terms of the money that was spent on giant pandas overall, I shudder to think how many species could have been saved with a fraction of it.... but was it really wasted if that money wasn't going to fund lesser-known species anyway?
Also China is setting up a national park system and has something resembling a wildlife conservation movement now...that all might not have existed without the international attention and elevation of pandas as conservation stars.
I try my best to stay out of the disclosure but I guess I got pulled in.
Here's the post in question
Here's the post in question
um, yeah, I read his first point and almost didn't bother reading on ("Pandas literally cannot mate in captivity. It's unbelievable"). Then I read his second point ("Artificial insemination and hand-rearing of cubs are basically standard practice, and still they usually die").
The guy basically has no clue at all. He's read some articles and (like a lot of people) doesn't seem to have any background knowledge to know what to digest and what to spit out.
The guy basically has no clue at all. He's read some articles and (like a lot of people) doesn't seem to have any background knowledge to know what to digest and what to spit out.
Some more historical info on Giant Pandas exported from China:
Giant Panda Going Overseas
The founding of the People’s Republic of China ended the history of foreign plundering of giant pandas. As friendly ambassadors, 23 giant pandas were sent as state gifts to nine countries from 1953 to 1982. The key movements were:
In 1957, giant panda Ping Ping was sent to the former Soviet Union, the first sent overseas as a state gift; in 1959, An An followed suit.
Between 1965 and 1980, five giant pandas, including Dan Dan, Sang Xing, and Ling Ling, were sent to the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.
In April 1972, Ling Ling and Xing Xing, were sent to the United States.
In October 1972, Lan Lan and Kang Kang were sent to Japan.
In December 1973, Yan Yan and Li Li were sent to France.
In April 1974, Jia Jia and Jing Jing were sent to Britain.
In December 1974, Tiantian and Baobao were sent to Germany.
In September 1975, Ying Ying and Bei Bei were sent to Mexico.
In September 1978, Shao Shao and Qiang Qiang were sent to Spain.
In 1980, another female, Huan Huan was sent to Japan to replace Lan Lan who had died in 1979. But, in the same year, the male, Kang Kang, died, and was replaced by Fei Fei in 1982. Fei Fei is the last giant panda sent overseas as present by the Chinese government.
Further info in above link....
Giant Panda Going Overseas
The founding of the People’s Republic of China ended the history of foreign plundering of giant pandas. As friendly ambassadors, 23 giant pandas were sent as state gifts to nine countries from 1953 to 1982. The key movements were:
In 1957, giant panda Ping Ping was sent to the former Soviet Union, the first sent overseas as a state gift; in 1959, An An followed suit.
Between 1965 and 1980, five giant pandas, including Dan Dan, Sang Xing, and Ling Ling, were sent to the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.
In April 1972, Ling Ling and Xing Xing, were sent to the United States.
In October 1972, Lan Lan and Kang Kang were sent to Japan.
In December 1973, Yan Yan and Li Li were sent to France.
In April 1974, Jia Jia and Jing Jing were sent to Britain.
In December 1974, Tiantian and Baobao were sent to Germany.
In September 1975, Ying Ying and Bei Bei were sent to Mexico.
In September 1978, Shao Shao and Qiang Qiang were sent to Spain.
In 1980, another female, Huan Huan was sent to Japan to replace Lan Lan who had died in 1979. But, in the same year, the male, Kang Kang, died, and was replaced by Fei Fei in 1982. Fei Fei is the last giant panda sent overseas as present by the Chinese government.
Further info in above link....
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