Northern White Rhino

One possible benefit could be that if the technology is worked out to bring back the white rhinos, then it might be useful for other rhino species like the Javan and Sumatran which seem unlikely to be on the planet in the wild by the end of the century the way things are heading.
 
That's a good point, @DavidBrown. Developing the technology and experience of bringing back species would have far-reaching benefits beyond just saving NWRs. Ideally, this research would coexist with well-funded conservation measures for surviving rhino populations. If push came to shove, though, resources would probably be better spent on conservation of species with a better outlook.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
That's a good point, @DavidBrown. Developing the technology and experience of bringing back species would have far-reaching benefits beyond just saving NWRs. Ideally, this research would coexist with well-funded conservation measures for surviving rhino populations. If push came to shove, though, resources would probabhyly be better spent on conservation of species with a better outlook.
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In theory, information gained from research into the northern white rhinoceros could be useful for conservation of other rhinos, but in practice, it's hard to say how transferable any such new information will be. The rhino species have different reproductive physiology (look at how long it took to get even a baseline understanding of Sumatran rhinos, even though three other species of rhinos have been kept and bred regularly in zoos) and what works for one species may not work for another.

However, I do take issue with the article's assertion that the northern white is not worthy of as much effort as it is merely a subspecies. There is some contention about the specific status of the northern white rhino; at the very least, the two (sub)species of white rhino have been reproductively isolated for long enough that the argument about specific status comes down mostly to semantics, as the populations appear to be distinct from a cladistic perspective. One aspect of this tragic loss of a (sub)species is the fact that too little research was done on the northern white, and it's too late to do much meaningful research now.

One thing that has always puzzled me - given the great success of southern whites in zoos, why did the northern white population have such trouble. Granted, toward the end there were too few individuals and problems with age/fertility, but DK had quite a herd of northern whites at one point (with some limited breeding success) and SDSP had five individuals at one point (with no breeding success).
 
What if the northern white rhino will be declared as the same subspecies with the southern white rhino, that would be a great news I think for most of us. Plus, the loosing of the northern white rhino, or the western black rhino, is not painful as the eventual lost of the Sumatran or Javan rhinoceros, because the other subspecies of white and black rhinos are very similar, if not genetically belonging to a single subspecies, - research and time will show...
 
DavidBrown said:
then it might be useful for other rhino species like the Javan and Sumatran which seem unlikely to be on the planet in the wild by the end of the century the way things are heading.
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For Sumatran Rhino certainly, things look very grim, with a rapidly declining population and only the very small nucleus in semi-captivity. But the situation of Javans does not seem to have changed much from how I remember it in the 1960's- still all concentrated in one reserve but an apparently healthy breeding population with calves regularly recorded and a good measure of protection. If they have survived the last few decades without any dramatic population loss, then I hold out better hope for them.
 
I believe the numbers are around 63 on the last count!
with around 4-5 known calfs
 
It sounds as if the Northern and Southern White Rhinos are very similar. If a Siberian Tiger and a Malayan tiger can be classified as the same sub species of tiger then I see no harm in consolidating two sub species that in terms of physiology, are even more similar. It would certainly make things a lot easier financially. Money which can be better spent conserving the Sumatran and Javan Rhinos.

Such a small founder population really can't be considered viable long term with genetic bottlenecks cuasing issues down the line, as seen in African Cheetah.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Such a small founder population really can't be considered viable long term with genetic bottlenecks cuasing issues down the line, as seen in African Cheetah.
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Not sure which part of this statement I find more baffling; the implication that you believe that the bottlenecking seen in the genepool of this species means it cannot be considered as viable in the long term, or the fact that you felt the need to specify "African" cheetah and hence imply you believe the Asiatic population *is* viable :p
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Not sure which part of this statement I find more baffling; the implication that you believe that the bottlenecking seen in the genepool of this species means it cannot be considered as viable in the long term, or the fact that you felt the need to specify "African" cheetah and hence imply you believe the Asiatic population *is* viable :p
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A genetic bottleneck does not generally make for a viable population down the line. Especially with a species like rhino that already has fertility issues in captivity due to other reasons.

I know nothing about Asiatic Cheetah. I used African Cheetah as an example as they are the species I am more aware of due to their increased presence in captivity. I often hear that all captive cheetah "are as closely related as identical twins genetically due to an evolutioary bottleneck." Does this then apply to all cheetah (and the Asiatic population is similarly affected)?
 
Zoofan15 said:
If a Siberian Tiger and a Malayan tiger can be classified as the same sub species of tiger
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Siberian and Malayan tigers are widely acknowledged to be separate subspecies.

Zoofan15 said:
I see no harm in consolidating two sub species that in terms of physiology, are even more similar.
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Physiology is not a good indicator of whether two animals are genetically distinct; the decision of whether or not northern and southern rhinos are distinct subspecies should not be based on anything but genetic analysis.

Zoofan15 said:
It would certainly make things a lot easier financially. Money which can be better spent conserving the Sumatran and Javan Rhinos.
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While in this particular case I agree with you, I want to point out that A) lumping genetically distinct animals together into one subspecies to make conservation management easier is bad science, and B) consolidating white rhino subspecies does not produce more conservation money for Sumatran and Javan rhinos.

Zoofan15 said:
Such a small founder population really can't be considered viable long term with genetic bottlenecks cuasing issues down the line, as seen in African Cheetah.
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I agree with Zoofan on this, TLD. The northern white rhino is a lost cause. I don't even think breeding is possible now, but even if it was, three animals is too low a population for most species to come back from, let alone rhinos which are severely disadvantaged from a genetic standpoint by their long generation time. I'm not sure why we should even be bothering to protect the last ones, other than the idea that we owe it to them since we condemned their race to extinction. On top of all that, there is very little safe habitat for northern rhinos left and poaching is on the rise, so the problems that drove them to extinction have not even been dealt with.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I often hear that all captive cheetah "are as closely related as identical twins genetically due to an evolutioary bottleneck." Does this then apply to all cheetah (and the Asiatic population is similarly affected)?
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all cheetahs are not that identical. Eastern cheetahs can be distinguished from southern cheetahs, for example, as can Asiatic from African populations. The "genetically identical" story is something which is repeated constantly but it stems from a study in the 1980s which had small sample sizes. That is, I think, where the "identical twin" comparison came from. Some sources even go so far as to claim "one female cheetah survived the bottleneck" which is pretty much nonsense. More recent studies suggest that there were probably two bottlenecks, the first around 100,000 years ago when cheetahs were dispersing from Asia to Africa, and the second around 10,000 years ago.

They do have extremely low diversity, but this hasn't seemed to be an issue in wild cheetahs - studies which have suggested it is a problem (with regards to things like fertility and immunity) were on captive cheetahs.
 
Zorro said:
I believe the numbers are around 63 on the last count!
with around 4-5 known calfs
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Which was roughly the same estimate- or 'around fifty' which used to be given in the 1960's, so if anything the population has grown marginally.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
I agree with Zoofan on this, TLD. The northern white rhino is a lost cause. I don't even think breeding is possible now, but even if it was, three animals is too low a population for most species to come back from, let alone rhinos which are severely disadvantaged from a genetic standpoint by their long generation time.
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You seem to have entirely missed the point of my reply; I wasn't disputing the claim by Zoofan that the NWR is doomed at all, but rather his insinuation that the Cheetah is similarly doomed!

Zoofan15 said:
I know nothing about Asiatic Cheetah. I used African Cheetah as an example as they are the species I am more aware of due to their increased presence in captivity. I often hear that all captive cheetah "are as closely related as identical twins genetically due to an evolutioary bottleneck." Does this then apply to all cheetah (and the Asiatic population is similarly affected)?
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Asiatic and African populations of cheetah are conspecific - but the world population of the former is down to perhaps a dozen at *most* which is why I found your chosen distinction amusing.

As Chli said, the claims that cheetah are all as closely related as identical twins are something of an exaggeration - although the genepool displays extremely low variation there are sufficient differences both in genetic and morphological terms to distinguish various populations of the species, although whether one classifies them as subspecies varies depending on who you ask. Personally I do.

Incidentally, the human race went through a very similar genetic bottleneck at roughly the same time as the cheetah, and to roughly the same extent.
 
Pertinax said:
Which was roughly the same estimate- or 'around fifty' which used to be given in the 1960's, so if anything the population has grown marginally.
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I believe the count was around two year ago using a lot more trail cameras than ever before, the best news was the handful of new calfs reported.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You seem to have entirely missed the point of my reply; I wasn't disputing the claim by Zoofan that the NWR is doomed at all, but rather his insinuation that the Cheetah is similarly doomed!



Asiatic and African populations of cheetah are conspecific - but the world population of the former is down to perhaps a dozen at *most* which is why I found your chosen distinction amusing.
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Where did you get such a low number of Asiatic cheetahs left? I know the numbers are very low, and it's possible the number of mature breeding individuals is low, but the IUCN Red List's 2008 assessment (the most recent) cited a study reporting 60-100 individuals (with fewer than half mature breeding individuals) but with the population being mostly stable. This was based on a 2007 study - far from recent, to be sure, but I haven't heard anything about a further catastrophic drop in the population since then.
 
My estimate came from a (poorly recalled) memory of the following report claiming the population of females was as low as two:

Only two female Asiatic cheetahs remain in wild in Iran

However, having looked it up again it seems the survey in question had been misreported in the press; there are only two females being monitored but this does not mean they are the only ones present - the current estimate for the world population of Asiatic Cheetah is under 40 individuals, but the population is nonetheless rather higher than the dozen I stated.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You seem to have entirely missed the point of my reply; I wasn't disputing the claim by Zoofan that the NWR is doomed at all, but rather his insinuation that the Cheetah is similarly doomed.
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I never said (or insinuated) the cheetah was doomed. They're breeding well in captivity, especially in open range zoos and their is a large captive population. I was using them as an example of a species that has health issues attributed to a lack of genetic divesity, at least in captivity. Orana Wildlife Park has lost a number of breeding queens at a young age (6-7 years) due to kidney problems which are common in this species.
 
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