Several US zoos receive pangolins

[TheMightyOrca]

Brookfield Zoo now home to 13 endangered white-bellied tree pangolins

Brookfield Zoo, Pittsburgh Zoo, Turtleback Zoo, Memphis Zoo, Columbus Zoo, Gladys Porter Zoo, and some place called Zoologica (I can't find any information about this place) have all received tree pangolins and are attempting to establish a sustainable population. It seems the Brookfield Zoo has them on display, but the Gladys Porter Zoo plans on keeping them behind the scenes for a few years. I'm pretty surprised San Diego Zoo isn't involved, since they had the species in the past, but maybe if the program is successful SDZ and other zoos might get them as well.

What do you guys think? Personally I think it's cool and I really hope it succeeds. I've said before that I think pangolins could really benefit from zoos. There's the captive breeding, but also, I think they're interesting and unique enough to catch the eye of visitors and allow more opportunities to educate.

Side note, if they can do well with this species, do you think that programs will be attempted for other, more endangered species of pangolin?

 

[Swampy]

I'm presuming all these individuals have originated from Pangolin Conservation? Still not sure how I feel about this, but a concerted effort by multiple well-respected zoos is definitely not to be sniffed at.

 

[jayjds2]

I'm presuming all these individuals have originated from Pangolin Conservation? Still not sure how I feel about this, but a concerted effort by multiple well-respected zoos is definitely not to be sniffed at.

Some were imported directly from Togo while others were purchased from that organization. There have been births at most of the facilities involved, including a few full captive breedings (conception + birth in captivity, rather than birth to an imported pregnant female).

 

[pachyderm pro]

For those interested, I will be going to Brookfield zoo this Friday to get photos of our new pangolin and the exhibit. I think it is wonderful that such a rare species is finally getting recognized.

Brookfield Zoo now home to 13 endangered white-bellied tree pangolins

Brookfield Zoo, Pittsburgh Zoo, Turtleback Zoo, Memphis Zoo, Columbus Zoo, Gladys Porter Zoo, and some place called Zoologica (I can't find any information about this place) have all received tree pangolins and are attempting to establish a sustainable population. It seems the Brookfield Zoo has them on display, but the Gladys Porter Zoo plans on keeping them behind the scenes for a few years. I'm pretty surprised San Diego Zoo isn't involved, since they had the species in the past, but maybe if the program is successful SDZ and other zoos might get them as well.

Zoologica is just a different name of the base in Florida run by Justin Miller, who I think is the one behind this sudden pangolin spree. I remember him being in an interview at the Pittsburgh zoo so I believe this info is correct.

I was also shocked that San Diego did not get any pangolins, due to their previous experience with them. Though I heard they did not want to work with the organization supplying them.

 

[jibster]

For those interested, I will be going to Brookfield zoo this Friday to get photos of our new pangolin and the exhibit. I think it is wonderful that such a rare species is finally getting recognized.



Zoologica is just a different name of the base in Florida run by Justin Miller, who I think is the one behind this sudden pangolin spree. I remember him being in an interview at the Pittsburgh zoo so I believe this info is correct.

I was also shocked that San Diego did not get any pangolins, due to their previous experience with them. Though I heard they did not want to work with the organization supplying them.

Do we know much more about Justin Miller and the variously named organizations he heads in support of pangolin conservation? I've tried searching online, and haven't found too much. I have found nothing about anyone else other than Miller who works for any of these organizations, and the only storied I've found about facilities suggest that this project is (or at least was) being run out of Miller's home. I know a while back some members of this forum tried to contact Miller, but were unable to obtain clear answers. Given this limited information I've seen, it's not entirely surprising to me that San Diego chose not to work with him. I'm a bit surprised by the other zoos that have joined this consortium (Turtleback Zoo?) considering the major players missing (beyond San Diego, the Bronx comes immediately to mind), and I'm a bit troubled by the inclusion of the non-AZA-accredited Pittsburgh (I know that Pittsburgh is a reputable zoo and I know how and why it lost its acceditation, but it's still rather interesting that this program does not appear to have been set up through the AZA).

Having said all that, I'm (very) cautiously optimistic about this project, and hope for its long-term success. At the very least, it should make it much easier for me to see my first captive pangolin.

 

[drill]

According to the memphis zoo thread pangolins have gone on display.

 

[ailurus]

Some were imported directly from Togo while others were purchased from that organization. There have been births at most of the facilities involved, including a few full captive breedings (conception + birth in captivity, rather than birth to an imported pregnant female).

Looking at the dates of birth, at least those in the zoos, all were captive born but not captive bred.

 

[ailurus]

Do we know much more about Justin Miller and the variously named organizations he heads in support of pangolin conservation? I've tried searching online, and haven't found too much. I have found nothing about anyone else other than Miller who works for any of these organizations, and the only storied I've found about facilities suggest that this project is (or at least was) being run out of Miller's home. I know a while back some members of this forum tried to contact Miller, but were unable to obtain clear answers. Given this limited information I've seen, it's not entirely surprising to me that San Diego chose not to work with him. I'm a bit surprised by the other zoos that have joined this consortium (Turtleback Zoo?) considering the major players missing (beyond San Diego, the Bronx comes immediately to mind), and I'm a bit troubled by the inclusion of the non-AZA-accredited Pittsburgh (I know that Pittsburgh is a reputable zoo and I know how and why it lost its acceditation, but it's still rather interesting that this program does not appear to have been set up through the AZA).

Having said all that, I'm (very) cautiously optimistic about this project, and hope for its long-term success. At the very least, it should make it much easier for me to see my first captive pangolin.

Try "Justyn MIller" as well. And search the herp trade boards.

 

[ailurus]

Some were imported directly from Togo while others were purchased from that organization. There have been births at most of the facilities involved, including a few full captive breedings (conception + birth in captivity, rather than birth to an imported pregnant female).

All came through Justin Miller, either imported by him from Togo, or from his house.

 

[Giant Panda]

Good conservation almost invariably relies on transparency and evidence-based decision-making. I was sceptical when this move occurred; I am increasingly appalled by the apparent lack of either.

Zoos Take a Step Backward in Pangolin Conservation

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Good conservation almost invariably relies on transparency and evidence-based decision-making. I was sceptical when this move occurred; I am increasingly appalled by the apparent lack of either.

Zoos Take a Step Backward in Pangolin Conservation

I think this is an argument I'm going to lose, but let's just look at the numbers in that blog alone.

The Bad News: 1,000,000 lost from the wild in the last ten years.

The Good News: 100 recently rescued from the trade this month.
(let's be generous and say that we can extrapolate this to 1000 per year and thus 10,000 in the last ten)

Those ham-fisted calculations show that we are losing this battle 99% of the time.

Honestly, I have seen nothing printed that suggests that these numbers are going to come down. Certainly not in the blog, which presumably sought to make the strongest case possible that ex-situ captivity was not appropriate. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that over the coming years pangolin species will go extinct at a steady rate.

Technically buying wild-caught animals is supporting the trade, and it would be far better if they had instead sourced animals that were rescued. But given the disparity between the implied 100,000 animals per year traded and the 200 it cost to take 30 to America it is ridiculous to say this action has stimulated the trade.

Honestly, a mortality rate of 6% per year sounds both low and sustainable. In fact I think this must be a typo. In any case, the animals that have survived for much longer periods in captivity are evidence that it can happen, see also the breeding at Taipei Zoo.

This attempt will probably fail. That's what the track record suggests. But it might not. If it fails the pangolin trade will continue as before, as it will if it succeeds. The numbers above show that this whole exercise is merely a drop in the ocean. If it fails it will be forgotten by the world at large (who let's be honest are oblivious to it anyway). If it succeeds however it certainly won't be.

The risk here is that some zoos have ethically compromised themselves. That's not great. But it isn't going to be damaging to those zoos in a public sense because it seems that people really don't care about pangolins. The reward is that an ex-situ population could be established, which potentially might be very significant in the future.

If I might abuse an american football metaphor, this seems like a 'hail mary' pass at the end of the first half. It's unlikely to pay off, but the risk is controlled. And crucially it will be all to play for in the third and fourth quarters.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Good conservation almost invariably relies on transparency and evidence-based decision-making. I was sceptical when this move occurred; I am increasingly appalled by the apparent lack of either.

I think this is an argument I'm going to lose, but let's just look at the numbers in that blog alone.

Ah, once again this old debate has popped up having entirely failed to convince Giant Panda in the past, and being under the distinct impression that he may genuinely believe it would be morally better to allow pangolin to go extinct when in-situ conservation programmes fail than it would be to countenance attempting ex-situ captivity, I think I will sit this one out!

(Just to lighten the mood, however, I will note that I can think of another hard-to-breed Asian species with extreme dietary needs which gets a lot more attention and focus than does pangolin, despite not needing it anywhere near as much, and which he is presumably *not* opposed to keeping in captivity )

 

[lintworm]

Ah, once again this old debate has popped up having entirely failed to convince Giant Panda in the past, and being under the distinct impression that he may genuinely believe it would be morally better to allow pangolin to go extinct when in-situ conservation programmes fail than it would be to countenance attempting ex-situ captivity

I feel that you completely miss the point here...

The main point here is not just about 30 pangolins, but about the way these were acquired and that it is morally wrong to work in that way, but still masking it as doing good in pangolin conservation. Ex situ conservation CAN in some cases be a very helpful measure, but not in the way currently attempted with all the secrecy and working together with dubious dealers...

There is quite some overlap with the popping up of Bornean earless monitors in respectable collections in Europe (Vienna, Prague, Budapest) in the past years, which is also a species that is highly threatened by trade and in the monitor case all animals descend from illegal trade. The difference is that these monitors have a pretty good record of staying alive and breeding, which for pangolins is not the case...

 

[ailurus]

I feel that you completely miss the point here...

The main point here is not just about 30 pangolins, but about the way these were acquired and that it is morally wrong to work in that way, but still masking it as doing good in pangolin conservation. Ex situ conservation CAN in some cases be a very helpful measure, but not in the way currently attempted with all the secrecy and working together with dubious dealers...

There is quite some overlap with the popping up of Bornean earless monitors in respectable collections in Europe (Vienna, Prague, Budapest) in the past years, which is also a species that is highly threatened by trade and in the monitor case all animals descend from illegal trade. The difference is that these monitors have a pretty good record of staying alive and breeding, which for pangolins is not the case...

Exactly! The secrecy in which this was done is potentially damaging to all zoos. While many zoos turned down the offer of purchasing, I mean covering the import cost, of the pangolins, all zoos will be judged by the action of those six. For a fraction of the cost of importing, hiring staff, setting up exhibits and holding, in-situ centers could have been established and funded. Rehab and non-releasable animals could have been brought in for exhibit in the US. Instead there was rush, rush, rush to bring animals in before the new CITES designation would make it difficult/impossible to import wild-caught pangolins. And over one third have died since the imports, at least in the AZA zoos. I cant speak for Justin MIller's "facility". Perhaps they were all aged animals, I don't know.

I'm interested in what/if AZA will ever make a formal statement either supporting or dismissing this program.

 

[jibster]

Exactly! The secrecy in which this was done is potentially damaging to all zoos. While many zoos turned down the offer of purchasing, I mean covering the import cost, of the pangolins, all zoos will be judged by the action of those six. For a fraction of the cost of importing, hiring staff, setting up exhibits and holding, in-situ centers could have been established and funded. Rehab and non-releasable animals could have been brought in for exhibit in the US. Instead there was rush, rush, rush to bring animals in before the new CITES designation would make it difficult/impossible to import wild-caught pangolins. And over one third have died since the imports, at least in the AZA zoos. I cant speak for Justin MIller's "facility". Perhaps they were all aged animals, I don't know.

I'm interested in what/if AZA will ever make a formal statement either supporting or dismissing this program.

Agreed - ailurus and lintworm have both stated the reasons for my skepticism about this entire project. The secrecy was one of the more puzzling aspects - all 6 zoos had pangolins for quite a time before their existence was publicly acknowledged - and no reason has been given. Some of the zoos, such as my home zoo of Columbus, have not yet made a public statement about the pangolins they are keeping behind the scene. While a selfish part of me would love to be able to view pangolins in U.S. collections, this program leaves me puzzled and somewhat angry. Is this really a paradigm under which we hope to see future ex situ breeding programs established?

 

[Coelacanth18]

I'm in agreement about the secrecy. I wish that they had openly proclaimed and defended their actions instead of hiding behind their right to operational privacy until they were reasonably confident of the project's success. That implies that their actions are indefensible, which makes it more difficult for them to defend it now.

That being said... I'm leaning towards agreement with FG and TLD on this whole thing. As FG said, pangolin trafficking will continue, with or without the one import event that happened. If that one import event leads to a captive assurance population of an entire species, the potential benefits of that seems to outweigh the questionable ethics of their methods (at least from my perspective). Also, those pangolins were already going to be captured anyway... I think the ones that went to the zoos are pretty fortunate compared to their other captured brethren (who, it should be remembered, have a mortality rate of 100% ).

 

[jibster]

I'm in agreement about the secrecy. I wish that they had openly proclaimed and defended their actions instead of hiding behind their right to operational privacy until they were reasonably confident of the project's success. That implies that their actions are indefensible, which makes it more difficult for them to defend it now.

That being said... I'm leaning towards agreement with FG and TLD on this whole thing. As FG said, pangolin trafficking will continue, with or without the one import event that happened. If that one import event leads to a captive assurance population of an entire species, the potential benefits of that seems to outweigh the questionable ethics of their methods (at least from my perspective). Also, those pangolins were already going to be captured anyway... I think the ones that went to the zoos are pretty fortunate compared to their other captured brethren (who, it should be remembered, have a mortality rate of 100% ).

While it may be true that the pangolins would have died anyway, the real issue is whether the money spent in purchasing the captured pangolins, shipping them over here, and attempting to establish a captive population in America, especially given the many problems inherent in keeping pangolins and poor success in the past, might not have been better spent on in situ programs.

 

[Giant Panda]

@FunkyGibbon: Thanks for the response. It deserves more attention than I can muster tonight, but I will write a proper reply tomorrow.

Before moving onto @TeaLovingDave, and as suggested by @lintworm et al, I note that neither of you actually disputed my point. However, since this is a discussion forum, and since I enjoy a good discussion, I’ll happily dispute yours

Ah, once again this old debate has popped up having entirely failed to convince Giant Panda in the past, and being under the distinct impression that he may genuinely believe it would be morally better to allow pangolin to go extinct when in-situ conservation programmes fail than it would be to countenance attempting ex-situ captivity, I think I will sit this one out!

For sitting out, that read remarkably like chiming in. I could equally point out that, since we last discussed this, a panel of leading experts have agreed with my position* and rejected yours. So less of the eye-rolling, okay?

Returning to your singular point, you could always try asking my opinion rather than inferring it (a full-stop or two wouldn't go amiss either...). If you had, I would have suggested reframing your dilemma to something a little closer to reality. How about:

Resources for pangolin conservation are limited; should we allocate them to strategies with a better likelihood of averting extinction?

I have many issues with this program, but the fundamental one is that I believe we should prioritise the most effective strategies. You’re welcome to disagree with that (which would be stupid) or with my stance that American zoos don't represent the most effective strategy (which could be a fruitful discussion), but straw men and false dichotomies belittle us both.

Also, "he"? Says who?

(Just to lighten the mood, however, I will note that I can think of another hard-to-breed Asian species with extreme dietary needs which gets a lot more attention and focus than does pangolin, despite not needing it anywhere near as much, and which he is presumably *not* opposed to keeping in captivity )

Apples to oranges. My namesake may have refined tastes, but these can be met exceptionally well. Meanwhile, pangolin nutrition remains poorly understood, with few similarities between ostensibly successful diets.

As for "lightening the mood", please don't mistake my conviction for irritation. I'm angry at the situation and those involved, not forumsters who disagree with me. That said, I would remind you that last time around you took me to task for not valuing others’ opinions



*on the second thread. For those with short memories, the first was a debate over single-species versus landscape-level conservation using pangolins as a case-study; the second was a discussion about the best way to conserve pangolins specifically.

 

[junglejim]

Indeed if it was a perfect world moneys spent would and should be done through conservation efforts! However, secret, not documented acquiring pangolins shouldn't be major surprise when one actually knows of how once zoo's had acquired animals back in the day. THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PARTIES HERE HOW ANIMALS WHERE EXPLOITED TO BE ACQUIRED BY ZOO"S AND THE PET TRADE! Not anti-zoo here, I have been to like over 50 zoo's and aquarium. I LOVE animals. Is it possible that some small effort to understand this species via captive before they are wiped out? Some wonder the millions spent on the California Condor to save the species with so few left. Bring in the last remaining wild birds into captive. Today the species has been rebounding wonderfully, that they not also been released not only back into California, but also Arizona too! Somehow money seems to always be the concern how best to spent it, though isn't the notion of saving a species, ensuring the environment that we depend on actually priceless. Given one's human nature, there are indeed to many people who have a handle on destroying life any life regardless for profit, and couldn't give a rats ass about others. What ever one's stands on topic of zoo's captivity, thank goodness people still actually care for some odd ball animal that needs a helping hand to ensure it's survival so maybe, just maybe mankind can learn to live in peace and not destroy every fricken thing as we please. Right or wrong we can debate this till the cows come home, and rightfully GREAT topic of discussion. I for one love to see a live pangolin. Back in the day too the Metroparks Zoo had one, though it didn't live long. I never saw it ( rats ). Indeed YES money well spent toward field conservation, though can we bring that environment into captive and study pangolin before they go, and are gone.

 

[junglejim]

...by the way Pittsburgh Zoo has 3 pangolins, Brownsville Zoo has 7 (off display) !