Taronga Zoo Chimpanzee Troop

When the three females first arrived, I noted Hannah had been transferred to several zoos since her birth, as oppose to Ceres and Naomi, who had been born at Givskud Zoo where they came from. I assumed that having been introduced to a number of new communities and therefore to a range of individuals, that Hannah would have an advantage over Ceres, having seen and done it all before. I'm now wondering if her situation indicates something else. Maybe Hannah was moved on from so many zoos for failing to settle at them? It could be her personality or maybe she wasn't exposed to a wide range of social sitations as an infant/juvenile?

I think the best route to take from here is to export Lani and Sembe to Wellington Zoo as they have no reproductive future at Taronga Zoo and export is inevitable. They can take the place of Samantha and Malika at Wellington who can in turn be exported to Monarto Zoo to boost their female numbers. If strongly bonded to Lani and Sembe, Hannah could go with them; if there is little affiliation, try her at Monarto where the females (Zombi and Galatea) seem more placid than the Taronga females. What are your thoughts @tdierikx @soona ???
 
Hannah started off doing quite well at Taronga... she seemed to form a friendship with Shabani... but I think that all went haywire when Kamili and Koko were added to the group. Kamili almost insists that Shabani is hers alone... errr!

She may do better in a smaller troop like Monarto I agree...

The only real alternative Taronga has here is to split the group permanently... making up a group with the breeding members (minus Kamili and Koko, who could also go elsewhere), and the other group of "retired" chimps.

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Hannah started off doing quite well at Taronga... she seemed to form a friendship with Shabani... but I think that all went haywire when Kamili and Koko were added to the group. Kamili almost insists that Shabani is hers alone... errr!

She may do better in a smaller troop like Monarto I agree...

The only real alternative Taronga has here is to split the group permanently... making up a group with the breeding members (minus Kamili and Koko, who could also go elsewhere), and the other group of "retired" chimps.

T.
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Kamili's obsession with Shabani is somewhat bizarre. He's now the lowest ranking male and has never been a large, powerful male like his high ranking brother, Samaki, or Shikamoo, who's become quite the young stud of the group. Not to mention, Shabani is more fractious and aggressive towards the females than Lubutu etc. Do you think she's latched onto him because the more popular males have been claimed by other females @tdierikx? Kuma likes Shikamoo and Lisa is fond of Furahi, right?

I think exporting Hannah might be the best option if no improvements have been made in the 18 months she's been here as her remaining in the community is ultimately causing multiple issues for several members of the troop through extending separations and delays in breeding. Having a group of retired chimps might work, but would require a lot of separations of families just to acommodate one chimp.
 
Kuma does like Shikamoo... and so did Shiba...*grin*

Lisa got friendly with Samaki to produce Liwali, but she does like Furahi generally...

Kamili's relationship with Shabani is like they are a married couple... she gets really upset with him when he fraternises with other females... lol! I've seen her chase him around with a stick for sniffing another "woman's" swelling... hahaha!

Here's hoping a certain southern NSW zoo changes their mind about not having chimps, and gives us another option with regards to removing some of the excess chimps from Taronga... fingers crossed!

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Kuma does like Shikamoo... and so did Shiba...*grin*

Lisa got friendly with Samaki to produce Liwali, but she does like Furahi generally...

Kamili's relationship with Shabani is like they are a married couple... she gets really upset with him when he fraternises with other females... lol! I've seen her chase him around with a stick for sniffing another "woman's" swelling... hahaha!

Here's hoping a certain southern NSW zoo changes their mind about not having chimps, and gives us another option with regards to removing some of the excess chimps from Taronga... fingers crossed!

T.
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I've heard that older females are generally more attractive to male chimpanzees due to their high ranking (less risk of infanticide) so Lisa I imagine is desirable for that reason. Interestingly from what I've heard ,and from what you've told me, the younger females seem to be of more interest to the males at Taronga, though Kuma of course is in her prime, and high ranking so she would fit into both categories.

I've also heard that males don't generally father offspring with their mothers (or avoid mating with their mothers/sisters) so it's interesting to see Shiba follow that pattern with having Sudi; even if Lisa dodn't when she had Lani!

It sounds like Kamili limits Shabani's chances of fathering offspring! And Sule has apparently been successful in preventing any of the other males from mating with his mum. It's a shame, Sacha could have done with having one last baby, and Sule would have loved having a sibling given how much he enjoys interacting with Fumo etc.

I've clearly missed something with regards to another zoo? Are you refering to Adelaide Zoo reinstating chimps?

I also hope that separating the groups again doesn't have a negative effect on Ceres and Naomi, who were maknig good progress as of when they were last together. Especially so for Ceres, who took a while to gain acceptance. I'm still not 100% clear on whether Kuma was ever itnroduced to the new females? I know she was one of the females they were most concerned about introducing so it'd be itneresting to know if these concerns were unfounded, as I understand Koko/Kamili have proved the biggest hindrance thus far.
 
Mogo Zoo originally had some of the Rockhampton females didn't they? It'd be nice if they, or Adelaide Zoo, decided to reinstate chimpanzees to their collection. Adelaide Zoo only ever had a small family group, so I'm guessing the space there was limited and they would ather concentrate on Sumatran orangutans and leave chimpanzees to Monarto. Same as Melbourne, who had a slightly larger group, but also phased chimpanzees out of their collection (in the early 1990s).
 
Chimps are smart and strong, and rather a handful to care for I believe... *grin*

I'm holding on hope that Mogo may decide to get chimps in the future... and the sooner the better methinks... hehe!

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Chimps are smart and strong, and rather a handful to care for I believe... *grin*

I'm holding on hope that Mogo may decide to get chimps in the future... and the sooner the better methinks... hehe!

T.
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So which chimpanzees would you remove from the current situation?

I can’t really see Mogo Zoo going into chimpanzee unless they build a new exhibit for them. Maybe Werribee Open Range Zoo could represent Zoos Victoria in the chimpanzee programme down the line, like Adelaide Zoo have shifted their chimpanzees to Monarto Zoo.
 
Mogo would definitely have to build a new exhibit if they did.

Adelaide certainly doesn't have the space; that they're intending to house two species of great apes is pushing the limits IMO, there would simply be nowhere to adequately keep chimpanzees. If any zoos in the region were to take up chimps, I think the most likely would be Mogo, Werribee, or even Western Plains.
 
Zoofan15 said:
So which chimpanzees would you remove from the current situation?
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All the females past breeding age, or unable to be bred with... Lubutu can go with them, as he's their preferred alpha, and he's incapable of fathering any more offspring. I'd probably put Shabani with this group also, unless they are adamant that he might be able to father something with someone - hasn't managed it so far... lol!

I'd also send Lani and Sembe elsewhere, so they can be bred with unrelated males.

Possibly send extraneous adult males elsewhere if there is anywhere that wants them - including those that are now babies/juveniles (when they are old enough to leave).

Basically, I'd prune the troop down to a much more manageable sized group, and then we would have the space to breed more... if that's the intent of Taronga... *grin*

T.
 
tdierikx said:
All the females past breeding age, or unable to be bred with... Lubutu can go with them, as he's their preferred alpha, and he's incapable of fathering any more offspring. I'd probably put Shabani with this group also, unless they are adamant that he might be able to father something with someone - hasn't managed it so far... lol!

I'd also send Lani and Sembe elsewhere, so they can be bred with unrelated males.

Possibly send extraneous adult males elsewhere if there is anywhere that wants them - including those that are now babies/juveniles (when they are old enough to leave).

Basically, I'd prune the troop down to a much more manageable sized group, and then we would have the space to breed more... if that's the intent of Taronga... *grin*

T.
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I'd export the five adult males: Lubutu, Shabani, Samaki, Furahi and Shikamoo as well as four of the adult females: Koko, Shona, Hannah and Kamili.

Then I'd establish a new troop with the import of Alon as the new breeding male, and Sule as the alpha male to follow the following breeding plan:

Males:

Sule (2008): Alpha male. Vasectomised.
Alon (2008): Beta male. Breeding male.

Females:

Spitter (1960): Post reproductive.
Lisa (1979): Liwali (2014). Retire from breeding.
Sacha (1980): Retire from breeding.
Shiba (1981): Sudi (2014). Retire from breeding.
Ceres (1990): Breed 2018. Breed 2021. Retire from breeding.
Kuma (1991): Fumo (2013). Breed 2018. Breed 2021. Retire from breeding.
Naomi (2001): Breed 2018. Breed 2024. Contraception.
Lani (2002): Breed 2018. Breed 2024. Contraception.
Sembe (2008): Breed 2018. Breed 2024. Contraception.

This would start in 2017 with a community of 14 chimpanzee: 2.9 adults and 3.0 juveniles and expand with the birth of 10 infants: 5 in 2018, 2 in 2021 and 3 in 2024 to create a community of 24 chimpanzee.
 
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That sounds a very sensible set up (though can't say who would be dominant out of the two young males, just speculation)! It would, however, leave Rockhampton without a breeding male. Not sure who'd be a good fit for that role.
 
soona said:
That sounds a very sensible set up (though can't say who would be dominant out of the two young males, just speculation)! It would, however, leave Rockhampton without a breeding male. Not sure who'd be a good fit for that role.
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I think Sule is probably the more chilled of the two and therefore a beta kind of guy, however he would have a large support from the nine Taronga females who would probably place him in the alpha role over Alon. I think Sule would sit comfortably in this role for at least five years until the adolescent Fumo (backed by his ambitious mother Kuma) supplant him.

As for Rockhampton, I guess a lot depends on Cassius and how long he lives for. He’s apparently unable to sire offspring so is relatively useless to the breeding programme, however of course deserves to be treated with the same dignity and respect as reproductive members of the breeding programme.

If Cassius were to pass away soon, options could include:

Sending the three females to Monarto, Wellington or Hamilton Zoo for breeding and importing the five adult Taronga males to hold as a bachelor group.

Retain the three adult females and import a surplus adult male from the region (maybe Furahi as he’d be the most problematic to put into the bachelor group atm).

If Cassius is to remain at Rockhamton with the females, then for his safety I’d advise against any male older than an adolescent being introduced to him.

Alternatively, I suppose there would be no harm in Cassius coming to Taronga if they thought that Sule and the females would accept him?

For those that don’t know, Cassius is the son of Shiba’s older sister Mary (1960).
 
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tdierikx said:
Or... send Sule to Rockhampton and keep Shikamoo at Taronga...

T.
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That could work. Shikamoo is obviously equally related to the Taronga females as his brother Sule so would ideally be vasectomised to prevent him breeding with Lani and Sembe in particular but I think out of the five adult males, Shikamoo would be the only one to accept the adolescent male Alon from Rockhampton.

Then, as you say, Sule could be sent to Rockhampton where he could be introduced to their group with minimal risk of aggression to their chimpanzees, including the aging male.

Then all there would be to work out is where would the remaining adult males (Lubutu, Shabani, Samaki and Furahi) go, and where would the four adult females (Koko, Shona, Hannah and Kamili) go?

With infants (and adult males) in their groups, Hamilton, Monarto and Wellington Zoo won't want the males so the only option would be to remain at Taronga (separate from the main group) and wait for another zoo in the region to decide to exhibit chimpanzee, or send them to a zoo outside the region. Europe are focussing on purebred sub species, but there's no doubt some options in Asia for these four males.

Monarto Zoo is queuing up for new females, and no doubt Wellington and Hamilton Zoo are too but are they gonna really want Koko, Kamili and Hannah who have a history of problems, and Shona (who is sterilised) and therefore not worth spending money on importing for reproducitive reasons.
 
Chimps news.

Not much to tell. Hannah is doing well. Ceres is doing well. Most of the Original group were inside the night den. They were in the small enclosure. Only Kuma and Fumo, Lisa and Liwalli out and a couple of the others but couldn't see them clearly as they had their backs to me. The second group were in the big enclosure and they were quiet and most of them were resting. Naomi has a huge swelling.

Possible going to TZ on Sunday 11/6. Weather permitting.

In relation to sending Chimps from Taronga to other zoos. I would send the following females Sembe, Koko, Sasha, Shona and Kamili. As for the boys. Samaki, Furahi and Shikamoo.

Keep Shambani and Sule and the three little ones and Lisa, Shiba, Kuma, Lani and join them with Hannah, Naomi and Ceres.

Spitter and Lubutu I would retire. One the three boys grow up retire Lisa and Lani.

Furahi and Sembe I would send to Rockhampton Zoo.
Sasha and Shona, Samaki and Shikamoo to Wellington Zoo.
Kamili and Koko that is a hard one.
 
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tigersam said:
Chimps news.

Not much to tell. Hannah is doing well. Ceres is doing well. Most of the Original group were inside the night den. They were in the small enclosure. Only Kuma and Fumo, Lisa and Liwalli out and a couple of the others but couldn't see them clearly as they had their backs to me. The second group were in the big enclosure and they were quiet and most of them were resting. Naomi has a huge swelling.

Possible going to TZ on Sunday 11/6. Weather permitting.

In relation to sending Chimps from Taronga to other zoos. I would send the following females Sembe, Koko, Sasha, Shona and Kamili. As for the boys. Samaki, Furahi and Shikamoo.

Keep Shambani and Sule and the three little ones and Lisa, Shiba, Kuma, Lani and join them with Hannah, Naomi and Ceres.

Spitter and Lubutu I would retire. One the three boys grow up retire Lisa and Lani.

Furahi and Sembe I would send to Rockhampton Zoo.
Sasha and Shona, Samaki and Shikamoo to Wellington Zoo.
Kamili and Koko that is a hard one.
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Thanks for the update @tigersam. It doesn't sound like any progress has been made with the introductions since the beginning of the year though unfortunately. So the new group is Shona, Lani, Sembe, Ceres, Hannah and Naomi, as well as Lubutu, Shabani and Samaki? Is this correct?

Was good to hear your ideas for transfers, following myself and @tdierikx giving our ideas. I nominate
@soona to go next!

Just to clarify, do you mean Lani would retire without ever breeding? Getting shot of Koko and Kamili seems to be a reoccuring theme, and in my opinion a good idea. They have essentially been the cause of all problems, historically and presently and if they are not prepared to assist Kamili in raising offspring, she should be sent to a facility that are, so her genes can be passed on. Like you say, finding a place to take them will be the challenge.

Initially, exporting Sacha didn't seem like a good idea as she is settled in the community with her offspring and aging mother, Spitter however I soon realised the underlying ingenuis of your plan. Sacha has a sister, Sally, at Wellington Zoo. Sacha was 12 and Sally was 7 years old when Sally was sent to Wellington Zoo in 1992 so they will have memories of each other and no doubt be estatic to be reunited. Unlike Sacha, Sally is a confident and high ranking female in the Wellington Zoo's chimpanzee community and having lost yet another offspring, has had her family reduced to a single son, 5 year old Bakari, so could do with some more support. Well played @tigersam!
 
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