No, I wasn't.
Actually, he was kept separated from all the chimps for quite an extended period of time. Then they slowly intergrated him with the females first. The whole process took a few years.
Hix
Taronga Zoo Chimpanzee Troop
- Thread starter Chimo
- Start date
No, I wasn't.
Actually, he was kept separated from all the chimps for quite an extended period of time. Then they slowly intergrated him with the females first. The whole process took a few years.
Hix
No, I wasn't.
Actually, he was kept separated from all the chimps for quite an extended period of time. Then they slowly intergrated him with the females first. The whole process took a few years.
Hix
Did he arrive earlier than 1989 then? I have a newspaper article from 1989 which says he'd already been introduced to some females. His first offspring (including Kuma) were born in 1991.
I don't recall when he arrived. But his first introductions to females was indoors with wire separating them. This went on for a while until the keepers were certain there wouldn't be any hostility when they mixed outside.
Have got some more info on Snowy:
Snowy:
Born at Wellington Zoo 07/03/1983
Arrived at Taronga Zoo 27/11/1986
Died at Taronga Zoo 15/07/1999
So Snowy was only three years old when he arrived, which seems really young to have been separated from his mother. The article I read from 1989 said Snowy was being introduced to the group of chimpanzees one by one and he had already started mating with the females. Obviously some introductions would have been easier than others. Females like Samantha (born 1983), Sally (born 1985) and Cheena (born 1985) would have been easier to introduce than mature females like Spitter etc.
I don't believe he was introduced to Sonny (who died in 1989) but he may have been introduced to Danny and Mervin (who were exported in 1992). I'm not sure. It would have been difficult to manage different groups back then (and Danny was still siring offspring up until 1991) so I'd guess they were all in one group.
Snowy's first four offspring were:
Kuma (F): Born 06/12/1991 (Ficha)
Lubutu (M): Born 05/06/1993 (Lisa)
Havidole (M): Born 18/02/1994 (Sandra)
Unnamed (F): Born 10/08/1994 (Koko)
The only other infant born during this timeframe (1991-1994) was:
Shabani (M): Born 14/09/1994 (Shiba)
Shabani was fathered by Monte (born 1985). The paternity of the above infants was established through DNA testing so this implies Snowy and Monte were successfully introduced and both reproductively active in the group during this time.
Snowy:
Born at Wellington Zoo 07/03/1983
Arrived at Taronga Zoo 27/11/1986
Died at Taronga Zoo 15/07/1999
So Snowy was only three years old when he arrived, which seems really young to have been separated from his mother. The article I read from 1989 said Snowy was being introduced to the group of chimpanzees one by one and he had already started mating with the females. Obviously some introductions would have been easier than others. Females like Samantha (born 1983), Sally (born 1985) and Cheena (born 1985) would have been easier to introduce than mature females like Spitter etc.
I don't believe he was introduced to Sonny (who died in 1989) but he may have been introduced to Danny and Mervin (who were exported in 1992). I'm not sure. It would have been difficult to manage different groups back then (and Danny was still siring offspring up until 1991) so I'd guess they were all in one group.
Snowy's first four offspring were:
Kuma (F): Born 06/12/1991 (Ficha)
Lubutu (M): Born 05/06/1993 (Lisa)
Havidole (M): Born 18/02/1994 (Sandra)
Unnamed (F): Born 10/08/1994 (Koko)
The only other infant born during this timeframe (1991-1994) was:
Shabani (M): Born 14/09/1994 (Shiba)
Shabani was fathered by Monte (born 1985). The paternity of the above infants was established through DNA testing so this implies Snowy and Monte were successfully introduced and both reproductively active in the group during this time.
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Osprey71
Well-Known Member
It is still the same. Naomi had a really big swelling last sunday. She looked like she was sitting on a large water melon that how big it was. I have uploaded a photo of her. Taken on the 2nd June 2017. Neither Sembe or Samaki were paying any attention to her. She was happy just to her own thing. I have been nearly every weekend accept the last two. They keep changing the two groups around and the new troop when in the small exhibit seen to spend most of there time inside. You may only have one or two out in the sun but that is it. No news from the original troop.
It's a shame almost no progress has been made with introductions in the time the three new girls have been here. I feel the progress that had initially been made (with Naomi and eventually Ceres being accepted by the main group) has now been undone with the splitting of the groups again six months ago. From what we've heard, Hannah seems to be the obstacle here and there are ultimately going to be a lot of problems caused by her not integrating with the group down the line. only for the outcome to be, that she has to go to another zoo.
It's good that Lani and Sembe have formed friendships with the new girls but if the ultimate plan is to move these two females on (and I believe it is), then it's just delaying their plans. It also doesn't seem wise to assume that their support will count for anything when the group is reintergrated. Lani and Sembe would take their mother's side in any conflict and I doubt Shona would be a strong source of support in any confrontation.
I think they should cut their losses with Hannah and focus on integrating Ceres and Naomi with the main group. Hannah would do well at Monarto Zoo in my opinion.
As far as a person on the outside looking in may have an opinion, I completely agree with you. It can't healthy for the introductions and associated split of the community to be at a standstill, and there remains the concern that Hannah might not ever be able to integrate. I am scared silly at the idea of the males from the two groups being eventually reintroduced, and am thankful I won't be the person making such decisions.
I believe the best thing for everyone would be to move Hannah, along with Lani and/or Sembe to Monarto, where they would only have to contend with two relatively 'easy' females, and males who would be thrilled to finally have some more girls around. Monarto desperately needs more females, so this would be a win all round. Lani and Sembe could breed with Tsotsi (or, far less ideally, Tsotsi). I'm quite upset this, or something similar, hasn't happened already, the intros at Taronga have been going on for so long, it must be incredibly stressful for both the chimps and the people working with them. The situation has me worried sick.
I believe the best thing for everyone would be to move Hannah, along with Lani and/or Sembe to Monarto, where they would only have to contend with two relatively 'easy' females, and males who would be thrilled to finally have some more girls around. Monarto desperately needs more females, so this would be a win all round. Lani and Sembe could breed with Tsotsi (or, far less ideally, Tsotsi). I'm quite upset this, or something similar, hasn't happened already, the intros at Taronga have been going on for so long, it must be incredibly stressful for both the chimps and the people working with them. The situation has me worried sick.
You make a very good point about the difficulties regarding the reintroduction of the males @soona. 6 months ago, it seemed the biggest challenge would be reintroducing Furahi to the new group (which was then the bigger group) and if Lubutu would accept would or if Furahi would challenge him etc. It appears now there's a reverse of that situation, with Furahi now heading up the larger group and Lubutu being the alpha of a much smaller group. Unless changes are made, the current challenge in my opinion will be reintroducing Lubutu to the main group (led by Furahi). Lubutu's success as an alpha no doubt came from a combination of females who genuinely supported him (Lisa etc.) and females who feared an alternative (Sacha etc.), who didn't wanna rock the boat. Now they've been forced to accept a new alpha (by Lubutu's removal), there's several females who will prefer Furahi as the alpha, as well as the females resistant to change who now consider Furahi as alpha to now be the norm. The only guaranteed support Lubutu will have is Lisa (and possibly Lani) and I believe there's a saying about the Taronga chimps, "With Kuma on your side, you cannot fail!"
I also agree with sending Lani and Sembe with Hannah to Monarto. It's important to relocate them sooner rather than later while they are the natural dispersal age and likely to assimilate easily into a new group. It'd be nicer if they can go to the same facility, having grown up together. They may not be especially close, but I'm sure they will appreciate each other in a new setting, and since Monarto is in the most need of new females out of the zoos in the region, this sounds like a win win.
Add to this the fact that Kuma will happily challenge Lubutu if she thinks she can, and could possibly beat him in any physical fight, the merging of the 2 groups will be even more dangerous now than if they had done it earlier. I fear for Lubutu if Taronga don't think long and hard about possibly relocating him with some of his old troop members.
T.
Kuma being such a large female, and Lubutu being a smaller male, they're probably quite well matched. I'd possibly say Kuma would be stronger. Samaki is the largest male and Kuma has had him running scared in the past. I think the best solution is for Shabani, Furahi, Shikamoo and Sule to remain at Taronga with the group as they are well settled in the main group, and like you suggest, relocate Lubutu (and Samaki if he can't be reintroduced either). The question of where to relocate two males is the difficult part however.
I read an article a while back that said females upon reaching adolescence, immigrate into a new community, returning to their previous community if tensions arise, before returning to their new community again. This process can be repeated several times over a couple of years until they have fully assimilated into the new community. Obviously, Ceres, Hannah and Naomi can't return to their home zoos whenever there's a problem with introductions but I wonder if Taronga would have done well to trial a replication of this by introducing the three new females and then returning them to the spare exhibit (away from the Taronga chimps) a couple of days a week or as conflicts arose. This may have worked better than the approach of introducing chimps to them (and leaving them with them permantently) until things went pear shaped.
I also think Taronga Zoo would do well to allow Kuma to have her next infant next year. Survival of infants is statistically highest when the mother in her 20s so they really should be taking advanatge of Kuma being at her prime reproductive age, following the birth of her last infant at 22 years in 2013. If Kuma gives birth in 2018, there will still be adequate time to breed her for the final time 3-6 years later when she is in her early 30s.
I see no reason to delay Kuma breeding due to the introduction of the new females. Kuma is the highest ranking female and with the support of her sons, who will be aged 15 and 5 years next year, there is no risk of infanticide in my opinion. I don't think Kuma will be highly aggressive to the new females as she is well socialised (Koko and Kamili have caused most of the conflicts to date) and with a new infant, she'll have little time to engage in conflicts with the new females.
I see no reason to delay Kuma breeding due to the introduction of the new females. Kuma is the highest ranking female and with the support of her sons, who will be aged 15 and 5 years next year, there is no risk of infanticide in my opinion. I don't think Kuma will be highly aggressive to the new females as she is well socialised (Koko and Kamili have caused most of the conflicts to date) and with a new infant, she'll have little time to engage in conflicts with the new females.
The enclosure isn't big enough to be permanently divided into two is it? It's a real shame that it appears the only option for the adult males is a permanent separation when they all got on fine prior to the start of these introductions. I really didn't understand why there was such a delay in introducing Furahi, Shikamoo and Sule to the females intially (and therefore shorterning the separation time between Lubutu/Shabani/Samaki and Furahi/Shikamoo/Sule), when it was females like Koko and Kamili causing the issues and delays in the introductions.
Lani and Sembe will be in high demand from the Monarto, Hamilton and Wellington Zoos, I'd imagine. Hannah too to a point.
I can't think of any current holding zoos that could take on adult males like Lubutu and Samaki however. Monarto, Hamilton and Wellington all have infants in their groups and established adult males and I don't know if Rockhampton could accomodate another two adults space wise? It'd be nice if a new holding zoo in the region could open up a space but there may be options outside of the region (in the USA for example). Like I say, it'd be a real shame for this to happen and not an ideal situation by any means.
Wow, I didn’t see that coming! I’m guessing it was unplanned, though I’m glad she’s having a baby since it became obvious some time ago that she and Sembe wouldn’t be leaving anytime soon, due to their role in helping the three new females settle in. Not allowing her to breed until she had moved to a new zoo would obviously have delayed her breeding significantly.
Lani was 11 years old when Kuma had Fumo 4 years ago and Taronga Zoo reported she enjoyed baby sitting and looking after him. Previously, females at Taronga had already bred by this age, as would females in the wild so it’s good Lani, at the age of 15, is now having her first infant while she is still young. I hope Sembe has a baby in the near future, just not to her brother.
Obviously this birth means Lani (and possibly Sembe) will not be moving for some time.
Are the three new females are off contraceptives @tdierikx?
Lani was 11 years old when Kuma had Fumo 4 years ago and Taronga Zoo reported she enjoyed baby sitting and looking after him. Previously, females at Taronga had already bred by this age, as would females in the wild so it’s good Lani, at the age of 15, is now having her first infant while she is still young. I hope Sembe has a baby in the near future, just not to her brother.
Obviously this birth means Lani (and possibly Sembe) will not be moving for some time.
Are the three new females are off contraceptives @tdierikx?
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Did you see Lani? Was she visibly still heavily pregnant?
The 3 new females are definitely off contraceptives @Zoofan15 ... fingers crossed a couple of them may have had the successful attentions of Samaki... *grin*
I was told last week that Shabani was not in with the new girls... only Lubutu and Samaki... can you confirm absolutely positively that Shabani was in with them @Osprey71? I didn't see him in there last week, and he would have been running about screaming when the other 2 boys kicked off for sure - as is his wont... lol!
T.
I was told last week that Shabani was not in with the new girls... only Lubutu and Samaki... can you confirm absolutely positively that Shabani was in with them @Osprey71? I didn't see him in there last week, and he would have been running about screaming when the other 2 boys kicked off for sure - as is his wont... lol!
T.