Dudley Zoological Gardens Dudley Zoological Gardens in 2017

[Pertinax]

The last male chimpanzee at Dudley was Pepe, who passed away in 2005.

Yes, and Pepe was seriously dominated by the much larger cohort/clan of ZSL females he was put with. I saw him with them once and he was a shadow of his former ebullient self in his old group, sitting in a corner and screaming fearfully if a female came near him. There is a rumour they were responsible for his death, I don't know if it has any foundation.

 

[Pertinax]

Is the chimp project endorsed at the EAZA level? As far as I am aware there had been a reason for a females' only group? Anyone have additional and new info?

As stated, it is/was due mainly to shortcoming of the enclosure fence. They did not replace the last male when he died. But if they want to start a breeding group, presumably they would follow EAZA guidlines and concentrate on West African Chimps? If so that might rule out some/all of the existing ones anyway. I don't know their exact parentage or whether they have been genetically tested to establish their subspecies. Most/all(?) of them were born at London zoo.

 

[MagpieGoose]

But if they want to start a breeding group, presumably they would follow EAZA guidlines and concentrate on West African Chimps? If so that might rule out some/all of the existing ones anyway.

Malika is already a proven hybrid, which rules her out. The mother of Mandy and Barbie, Brenda is a Central Chimp (P.t.troglodytes) so if they wanted a breeding group, the daughters of Mandy and Barbie would have to be all pure Centrals.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Did the zoo actually state that they want to breed the chimps, or is that just conjecture? Introducing males doesn't have to be a prelude to breeding; as someone stated earlier, it would improve their welfare by creating a more natural coed social grouping.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Did the zoo actually state that they want to breed the chimps, or is that just conjecture? Introducing males doesn't have to be a prelude to breeding; as someone stated earlier, it would improve their welfare by creating a more natural coed social grouping.

Coelacanth, the feature article actually in the last line stated " ... starting a breeding program".

And for what it is worth: there is a second subspecific breeding program for troglodytes chimps. Some of the neutered males ex London Zoo turned out to be pure-bred troglodytes .... unfortunately. So, there is a likelihood that some others at Dudley just might be. Just do not know whether testing has proceeded since 2014. If not, there is a sufficient number within the UK to set up one group and sift out the hybrids - if there are any - at Dudley.

2014 status was:
hybrid: Malaika;
troglodytes: (Brenda - died 1982)
unknowns (untested up till 2014): Fanny, Mandy, Barbie, Binti, Mala and Banika.

 

[Pertinax]

unknowns (untested up till 2014): Fanny, Mandy, Barbie, Binti, Mala and Banika.

I'm presuming the father of most of these was 'Sydney', the breeding male of the ZSL Chimp colony which was housed in the former Lubetkin(?) Gorilla House. I remember him when he was young and from memory think that he was a 'masked' chimp. i.e. verus. But I don't know about all the various mothers.

 

[gentle lemur]

I did ask the chimp keeper about genetic testing, she said that she believed it had been done, but did not volunteer any details and so I changed the subject.
Actually if this project were to go ahead, they would only need one male of the appropriate subspecies, provided that he had support from vasectomised males to back him up. It might also help to split the female group, at least temporarily.

 

[Pertinax]

Its worth adding that Twycross seem(afaik) to have had no problem adding a purebred West African male chimp from France to their larger group, even though he was a single male with no existing 'allies' in, or out of the group, so it can be done with singletons sometimes.

Another way of doing things is to obtain several males from different sources and allow them to form a bond before adding them to the females. Again, tricky procedure, but it can be done.

In reality, to start a purebred breeding group, you only need one purebred male and a couple of females present in a larger group. Other existing generic group members can be prevented from breeding, as they do at e.g. Edinburgh.

 

[Tim May]

I'm presuming the father of most of these was 'Sydney', the breeding male of the ZSL Chimp colony which was housed in the former Lubetkin(?) Gorilla House. I

Of the seven ex-London Zoo chimpanzees in the photo posted by “Benosaurus”, two of them “Mandy” and “Barbie” were fathered by “Sidney”.

“Fanny” was wild-caught and the other four were fathered by “Johnny”.

 

[Pertinax]

Of the seven ex-London Zoo chimpanzees in the photo posted by “Benosaurus”, two of them “Mandy” and “Barbie” were fathered by “Sidney”.

“Fanny” was wild-caught and the other four were fathered by “Johnny”.

That means the four youngest ones, which may still be of breeding age, were all fathered by 'Johnny'. I know nothing of his ancestry.

I wonder if any of these females have bred before arriving at Dudley.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Of the seven ex-London Zoo chimpanzees in the photo posted by “Benosaurus”, two of them “Mandy” and “Barbie” were fathered by “Sidney”.

“Fanny” was wild-caught and the other four were fathered by “Johnny”.

Tim, is there any other life history info on location / where Fanny was wild-caught?

Male Sidney has on his life history info as being wild caught West Africa.

Alas for male Johnny's parentage was clearly not fully known (courtesy of Longleat) and if you delve a little deeper the possibilities might be endless. At some point, while following the lineages you come across 2 individuals said to be wildcaught in Sierra Leone. But some bloodlines go back to Howletts chimps and there the plot thickens even further with several wild caught unknown locations and even further down that line an individual from Cameroon (at Jersey).

It is to be hoped they sorted it all out.

 

[Tim May]

Tim, is there any other life history info on location / where Fanny was wild-caught?

I'm sorry but I don't know any details about "Fanny" prior to her being acquired by London Zoo in 1980. (Incidentally, "Fanny" is the mother of "Malaika".)

 

[Tim May]

I'm presuming the father of most of these was 'Sydney', the breeding male of the ZSL Chimp colony which was housed in the former Lubetkin(?) Gorilla House.

Of the seven ex-London Zoo chimpanzees in the photo posted by “Benosaurus”, two of them “Mandy” and “Barbie” were fathered by “Sidney”.

As mentioned in my earlier post, "Sidney" was the father of two of the current Dudley chimps; I should have added, though, that he was the grandfather of three of the four youngest ones.

 

[Benosaurus]

An orangutan enclosure appeal area has been created next to the orang house.

“To raise the funds we’re allocating all income from adult and child zoo experiences, as well as animal encounters from this year and last to the appeal and all sponsorship from our recent anniversary Walk on the Wild Side has also been added, but to achieve our target we do need help."

The zoo is aiming to raise £800,000 in three years to build a brand new orang enclosure. The large, much needed, new exhibit will replace the entire hunting dog enclosure. The enclosure will be roughly oval-shaped; 26m at its widest point and 48.3metres at its longest point. It will be a covered enclosure and the orangs will be joined by the lar gibbons, who will be getting a new house. The plans also show three new viewing areas.

(click on the above image to enlarge it)
Orangutan appeal area - Dudley Zoological Gardens

Personally, I think these plans look fantastic.

 

[Pertinax]

I'm pleased it will be a covered enclosure. But I'm presuming the existing house will still be their indoor area?- and that the current outside concrete 'yards' will still house individuals seperately as the new outdoor area looks to be a single area. So it will be a mix of old and new. I don't wish to sound negative but that older enclosure will still be a downside at Dudley.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Agreed on indoors. I would prefer that they would include new or expanded indoor habitat too for the orangs - it could be done ..., even under listed building status ..-.

I do wish they would stick to this project rather than the ones aired for additional short term funding. It takes away attention from the greater good of having a new orang habitat at Dudley.

 

[Pertinax]

- it could be done ..., even under listed building status ..-.

Afaik it has no listed status- it was built in the early 1960's.

 

[gentle lemur]

I'm pleased it will be a covered enclosure. But I'm presuming the existing house will still be their indoor area?- and that the current outside concrete 'yards' will still house individuals seperately as the new outdoor area looks to be a single area. So it will be a mix of old and new. I don't wish to sound negative but that older enclosure will still be a downside at Dudley.

I don't disagree. I am sure that if Dudley's fairy godmother gave the zoo a few million pounds, they would build a new orang exhibit on another part of the zoo site. But this is a significant improvement which the zoo must feel is feasible allowing for the budget and the time constraints. It does not preclude further improvements to the existing orang accommodation or indeed the eventual construction of a new building at the other end of the enclosure.
The problem is that there is so much at Dudley that needs modernisation and renewal to bring the zoo up to modern standards, which will boost visitor numbers and so drive further progress. Smaller scale projects are important, but this is probably the biggest and best one that is practicable at the moment.

 

[Benosaurus]

I'm pleased it will be a covered enclosure. But I'm presuming the existing house will still be their indoor area?- and that the current outside concrete 'yards' will still house individuals seperately as the new outdoor area looks to be a single area. So it will be a mix of old and new. I don't wish to sound negative but that older enclosure will still be a downside at Dudley.

Agreed on indoors. I would prefer that they would include new or expanded indoor habitat too for the orangs - it could be done ..., even under listed building status.

Of course the existing house will still be there if they're only building a new outdoor enclosure.

It's annoying that for years people have criticised Dudley and called for a new outdoor area to be built, but as soon the zoo tries to rectify it, with some fantastic plans, it's suddenly not good enough because suddenly the indoor area urgently needs changing as well. The indoor areas are actually ok for now. They may improve/extend them in the future, but one step at a time. The most important thing at the moment is the outdoor enclosures, you know, the thing we've been complaining about for years.

As I've said before, the zoo has already stated they will focus on the existing outdoor enclosures after this new one is built. So yes, it will be a mix of old and new for the time being. The old enclosures may still be a downside but surely having a large new one next door dilutes that significantly. If they demolished the old enclosures now then they'd be left with just one new one, so it makes sense to keep all them for now.

I suspect it's quite likely that the orangs will be rotated for access to the new enclosure. The fact there are two animal tunnels leading to the new enclosure increases that likelihood for me.

Finally, none of the orang buildings, including the moat, are listed in any way.

 

[Evo]

If they demolish the old house later on, they could build a modern one on the old site and link the house and the new enclosure above the path like at dublin?