What European Zoo Will be the ''San Diego Zoo'' in Europe/

[Mr. Zootycoon]

Botanicall collection should be easy to establish.

And why would you think that? Why would establishing a great botanical collection be any easier than establishing a great zoological collection? I know collections that struggled for years to obtain certain plant species they wanted.

But of course, I primarly taught on holding those hot species mentioned in the original post, and at the same time, also a great collection of venomous snakes and birds. I did not mentioned other taxa for examples monkeys, since a holding of a bonobo, mostly, is an indicator that the holding zoo has a great collection of primates too..

Rhino, koala, bonobo, venomous snakes and okapi, so practically your favourite animals? How about a great collection of... frogs, non-venomous snakes, crocodilians, rodents, carnivores or insects? Are they less important?

That's a bit much I guess, Arnhem (Burger's) and Apeldoorn (Apenheul) are not part of the Randstad.

You are right, but if one takes these maps into consideration, you could actually take the Netherlands as one metropolitan area. Include the German Ruhrgebiet into this (it's right next to it), and you have a massive urban area boasting over a dozen major collections like Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Rhenen, Arnhem, Duisburg, Dortmund and Gelsenkirche, and many dozens of small and medium sized collections.

 

[lintworm]

You are right, but if one takes these maps into consideration, you could actually take the Netherlands as one metropolitan area. Include the German Ruhrgebiet into this (it's right next to it), and you have a massive urban area boasting over a dozen major collections like Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Rhenen, Arnhem, Duisburg, Dortmund and Gelsenkirche, and many dozens of small and medium sized collections.

It is funny how misleading the map of city design is when it shows all Dutch cities, in reality those cities take up significantly less space than is shown there and by definition the Netherlands as a whole cannot be a metropolitan area... Amsterdam has a metropolitan area and one could argue Rotterdam-The Hague is one, but for the rest no ...

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

It is funny how misleading the map of city design is when it shows all Dutch cities, in reality those cities take up significantly less space than is shown there and by definition the Netherlands as a whole cannot be a metropolitan area... Amsterdam has a metropolitan area and one could argue Rotterdam-The Hague is one, but for the rest no ...

I would even say Amsterdam doesn't have a true metropolitan area (possibly Randstand as a whole if the cities were better connected). But I mentioned it because my geografy teacher argued one could (potentially) consider the Netherlands one single city with multiple centres and a huge area of "urban sprawl" which covers most of the country.

Regardless of this, I don't think a single Dutch zoo can compete with the San Diego Zoo.

 

[aardvark250]

According to Wikipedia,Randstad is a megalopolis.and if you really want to talk about megalopolis,they are so mega that all the Japan city could be a megalopolis, and the blue banana megalopolis stretch from UK to Italy.Lots of megalopolis could win San Diego if you talk about them.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Firstly, as far as I'm aware, such diseases are fairly rare in captive primate populations in Europe and, in any case, in a worse case scenario (all in a single collection dying -very unlikely) there'd still remain a further nine well-adjusted and breeding groups in Europe

These diseases are rare, but were mentioned just as examples. It seems that you are not fully aware that epidemics occurs unexpectedly and that:
- Influenza viruses are ever-evolving, and no one can know what influenza virus will appear each year and from what origin animal and what animals will be highly-susceptable. E.g., transmission pigs to humans, dogs to horses, birds to humans and monkeys, etc., etc.
- Many other fatal viruses for certain species, can appear unexpectedly, for example respiratory coronavirus from a civet or a gennet. .
- You should not forget food-poisonings and parasitic infestation from food - for example echinococcosis from contaminated with eggs, green leafy vegetables - examples Basel zoo gorillas or a gorilla.
-You should also bear in mind that rodents can transmit an array of diseases, of which many are fatal for many zoo animals and for humans. Examples encephalomyocarditis virus - susceptible apes, elephants, lions, rhinos etc., or hanta viruses - who knows whether apes can be fataly susceptable like humans.
-We should also not forget retroviruses that many non-human primates are their hosts.
-The human herpes virus simplex, can kill gibbons, siamang, capuchin monkeys etc. Who knows, what non-humans primates are fataly susceptable to certain herpes viruses from other primates or from other animals.
- You can know that a hepatitis A virus can be transmitted via fruits that are contaminated with the virus on the surface.
- And of course, many many more examples, if you are interested in veterinary diseases, zoonotic diseases, food safety, rodents as vectors of many diseases., ...

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

And why would you think that? Why would establishing a great botanical collection be any easier than establishing a great zoological collection? I know collections that struggled for years to obtain certain plant species they wanted.



Rhino, koala, bonobo, venomous snakes and okapi, so practically your favourite animals? How about a great collection of... frogs, non-venomous snakes, crocodilians, rodents, carnivores or insects? Are they less important?

Regarding botanical collection, I asume it is far easier to establish, cheaper of course, than a zoological collection. Plants are more robust for transportation than animals.
Regarding favourite animals, in general they are my favourite, together with all primates, spotted felids, birds like parrots, toucans, hornbills , great blue turaco, and vultures, rhinos, elephants, giraffe, certain arboreal mamals among koala, like sloths, possums, cuscuses, civets, binturong and giant anteater. But I mentioned them because they are like ''hot '' species for aspiring or for less-developed zoos.

 

[Shorts]

These diseases are rare, but were mentioned just as examples. It seems that you are not fully aware that epidemics occurs unexpectedly and that:
- Influenza viruses are ever-evolving, and no one can know what influenza virus will appear each year and from what origin animal and what animals will be highly-susceptable. E.g., transmission pigs to humans, dogs to horses, birds to humans and monkeys, etc., etc.
- Many other fatal viruses for certain species, can appear unexpectedly, for example respiratory coronavirus from a civet or a gennet. .
- You should not forget food-poisonings and parasitic infestation from food - for example echinococcosis from contaminated with eggs, green leafy vegetables - examples Basel zoo gorillas or a gorilla.
-You should also bear in mind that rodents can transmit an array of diseases, of which many are fatal for many zoo animals and for humans. Examples encephalomyocarditis virus - susceptible apes, elephants, lions, rhinos etc., or hanta viruses - who knows whether apes can be fataly susceptable like humans.
-We should also not forget retroviruses that many non-human primates are their hosts.
-The human herpes virus simplex, can kill gibbons, siamang, capuchin monkeys etc. Who knows, what non-humans primates are fataly susceptable to certain herpes viruses from other primates or from other animals.
- You can know that a hepatitis A virus can be transmitted via fruits that are contaminated with the virus on the surface.
- And of course, many many more examples, if you are interested in veterinary diseases, zoonotic diseases, food safety, rodents as vectors of many diseases., ...

I'm not going to disagree with anything you've said as I'm sure your knowledge of these matters is greater than mine. However, I would still emphasis the rarity (in reality) of such events actually occurring* and, in my opinion, on a risk-benefit analysis I think it's better to leave Europe's bonobo groups pretty much as they are for the time being (for the reasons/logic I previously stated).

*it'd be interesting if an actuary/statistician could compare the risk of bonobos getting disease with the risk of zoo nerds dying in a transport accident whilst travelling a huge distance to see a bonobo. Maybe I'd be more convinced by your stance if you could prove x zoo nerds lives could be saved by spreading bonobos about more.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

*it'd be interesting if an actuary/statistician could compare the risk of bonobos getting disease with the risk of zoo nerds dying in a transport accident whilst travelling a huge distance to see a bonobo. Maybe I'd be more convinced by your stance if you could prove x zoo nerds lives could be saved by spreading bonobos about more.

As I can, while traveling to the Netherlands or Belgium to see a bonobo, in an airplane accident , train crush or a terrorist attack.

 

[Zooplantman]

Including the Ape Cognition and Conservation Institute there are a total of eight places in the US with bonobos; the ACCI, Memphis, San Diego, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Fort Worth, Columbus and Milwaukee.

Sometimes it feels as though they are more common than that!
It does mean that they are distributed around the country... except the northeast and northwest

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

It does mean that they are distributed around the country... except the northeast and northwest

Zooplantman I would love to read your opinion on whether a botanical collection is far easier to be established than a zoological collection, since the botanical collection is inevitably a part of a zoological one.

 

[Batto]

These diseases are rare, but were mentioned just as examples. It seems that you are not fully aware that epidemics occurs unexpectedly and that:
- Influenza viruses are ever-evolving, and no one can know what influenza virus will appear each year and from what origin animal and what animals will be highly-susceptable. E.g., transmission pigs to humans, dogs to horses, birds to humans and monkeys, etc., etc.
- Many other fatal viruses for certain species, can appear unexpectedly, for example respiratory coronavirus from a civet or a gennet. .
- You should not forget food-poisonings and parasitic infestation from food - for example echinococcosis from contaminated with eggs, green leafy vegetables - examples Basel zoo gorillas or a gorilla.
-You should also bear in mind that rodents can transmit an array of diseases, of which many are fatal for many zoo animals and for humans. Examples encephalomyocarditis virus - susceptible apes, elephants, lions, rhinos etc., or hanta viruses - who knows whether apes can be fataly susceptable like humans.
-We should also not forget retroviruses that many non-human primates are their hosts.
-The human herpes virus simplex, can kill gibbons, siamang, capuchin monkeys etc. Who knows, what non-humans primates are fataly susceptable to certain herpes viruses from other primates or from other animals.
- You can know that a hepatitis A virus can be transmitted via fruits that are contaminated with the virus on the surface.
- And of course, many many more examples, if you are interested in veterinary diseases, zoonotic diseases, food safety, rodents as vectors of many diseases., ...

All of the bonobos in question are kept in zoos with experienced veterinary staff who are very aware of this, undertake the necessary precautions as trained professionals and have read their share of Fowler's copies, too...Shorts' reasoning is nevertheless more solid than yours. Unauthorized wild animal trafficking is actually a much larger Public Health issue, btw.

since the botanical collection is inevitably a part of a zoological one.

Unless you have an institution such as Cincinnati, Plzeň or Stuttgart that explicitly states its dual nature as both botanical and zoological garden, many zoos consider plants as decorative or landscape elements (or animal food), but do not strive for comprehensive species collections of plants.

 

[Zooplantman]

Zooplantman I would love to read your opinion on whether a botanical collection is far easier to be established than a zoological collection, since the botanical collection is inevitably a part of a zoological one.

A botanical collection does not NEED to be part of a zoological one (as the many botanical gardens prove). IMO establishing a great botanical collection may be easier than establishing a great zoological collection (plants are easier to obtain) but as for visitor experience one can not compare a seedling pine tree to an elephant calf.
Of course some locales permit a more diverse botanical collection than others but creating a striking, beautiful landscape is a matter of design rather than diversity so, in short, any zoo could in theory have a world class landscape.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

All of the bonobos in question are kept in zoos with experienced veterinary staff who are very aware of this, undertake the necessary precautions as trained professionals and have read their share of Fowler's copies, too...

Probably they are all, or most, with very high- average university score of the grades, as like me, 9.81 of maximum 10.0 , and thus, should be very aware. I think university's success scores in Germany are in a scale from 1 to 5, with 5 being highest, right./

 

[Batto]

Your point exactly, Nikola?

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Your point exactly, Nikola?

I realy don't realize what you are asking, can you explain a little bit, so I can answer correctly.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I realy don't realize what you are asking, can you explain a little bit, so I can answer correctly.

Batto is asking you why you felt the need to brag about your own university grades before then asking about German university standards, Nikola.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Batto is asking you why you felt the need to brag about your own university grades before then asking about German university standards, Nikola.

I liked to point out that high-university grades students tend to be more aware and more ambitious in learning new things. I also I wish I could studied in Germany, but you guess I don't had internet at home in 2008, when I was applying for studying veterinary medicine, and I started in Skopje. I did not get an answer from the last year, when I applied for scholarship for systematic doctorial studies in Germany , and got answers from other institutions and EAZA that I should develop research proposals - individual doctoral studies, and find mentors and willing participants. Somehow I lost interest and motivation, but I will try this year again though. I was lucky this year because I started a practice with captive wild animals. Finaly, I asked for Germany because this country holds the greatest number of bonobos in Europe, and their aware vets - that probably were good students. Is it OK/

 

[DavidBrown]

Sometimes it feels as though they [bonobos] are more common than that!

In the western U.S. bonobos are found only at the San Diego Zoo, so they feel very uncommon. It is unfortunate that more institutions are not working with them given their great charisma.

 

[Zooplantman]

In the western U.S. bonobos are found only at the San Diego Zoo, so they feel very uncommon. It is unfortunate that more institutions are not working with them given their great charisma.

Perhaps my impression is because I remember when they were quite rare in US zoos. Then more zoos got them (I feel the same about komodo dragons)

 

[grandelover1]

See but here’s the thing I have seen a lot of zoos in Europe that don’t have the greatest exhibits, so they wouldn’t compare there. But MANY of the zoos in Europe mentioned have better exhibits than San Diego. But conservation wise, though not with the species mentioned, Chester seems to be better than San Diego. Chester has had so many births year it’s crazy!