Leopard and Goat Farm Private Collection in Cornwall

Jurek7 said:
For example somebody interested in antelope (some rancher in Texas?) who might import hirola from the rescue reserve in Tanzania, and import live mountain nyala, not trophies... Dream on.
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Dream on indeed, but as somebody from Eastern Europe, you should be aware that especially Polish and Czech zoos have been bringing in a lot of interesting species in the past year, though far from all establish and if I am not mistaken Czech zoos have taken an interest in importing Giant eland, though whether that will ever succeed is a good question as the paperwork and legal requirements for importing hoofstock into the EU is a nightmare....
 
lintworm said:
Dream on indeed, but as somebody from Eastern Europe, you should be aware that especially Polish and Czech zoos have been bringing in a lot of interesting species in the past year, though far from all establish and if I am not mistaken Czech zoos have taken an interest in importing Giant eland, though whether that will ever succeed is a good question as the paperwork and legal requirements for importing hoofstock into the EU is a nightmare....
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It is not just a nightmare it is legally impossible, so good luck to them. And I think European zoos should focus more on another antelope that is threatened and would fit with the regional priorities.
 
Hirola does not seem to be on CITES, allthough that is certainly not a guarantee as to legality of import / export. The only related species on it is bontebok Damaliscus pygargus pygargus.

Secondly, country of origin for export might be Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya. Not sure what provisions by law are in place in these countries.

For hirola conservation an ex situ assurance colony WOULD BE beneficial. Under the present circumstances I would think that EX SITU would be one of the well established conservancies like Lewa or Ol Pejeta within Kenya itself.

For what it is worth: Within the Czech Republic the Dvur Kralove Zoo held the best breeding record for the species (the breeding group was exterminated on the orders of polit-icians ..., viz the giraffe story in 1981). I am convinced if the latter would not have happened we might have had a flourising hirola population in central Europe nowadays ... So, if individuals or EAZA / EEP would be determined it might be possible to resurrect a program for them. The TAG has recently been active to identify endangered taxons new to the region that might benefit from a ex situ conservation breeding program. The link between Europe and Middle East is another interesting one, allthough as I understand it at the moment it is near impossible for zoos to import from Middle East due to veterinary restrictions (imposed by European vet health authorities).

Not longevity record though as this was Gladys Porter Zoo in Brownsville, Texas - they held on to some elderly hirola till recently.
 
EU veterinary legislation bans the import of ungulates unless under very strict conditions. Hirola do not comply with those conditions. So the import of either species is not possible. Are there any Giant Eland in the US else that one would be impossible as well.
 
DDcorvus said:
Are there any Giant Eland in the US else that one would be impossible as well.
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They are spread thin, kept in zoos like Miami, Houston, and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. I do not know how many are breeding.
 
I am afriad I have to comment further on giant eland / EAZA: It seems that despite EU vet regulations being revised the import of non resident ungulate species to enable imports it has actually becoming a lot harder to do so. Consequently, the western eland project is off the tracks now. It is just ex situ support from mainly Czech zoos and science community to in situ in Senegal.
 
Nanook said:
Another aspect is that Todd has always had very good connections with some overseas rescue sanctuaries, in South East Asia and elsewhere, which is how he obtained some stock for RSCC like his original pair of Malayan Sun bears etc etc.. so this is another reason why he can and does find the unusual species for his collections.
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Yes he did quote having links with rescue sanctuaries on the previous RSCC website (it was short on info), but I question the logic of bringing several individuals to establish them in captivity/Europe. I may be wrong but were not the cassowaries, tarsier, fanaloka and cuscus the only individuals in Europe? I have heard of tigers (not the Malaysians) and tapir also being held for a period and then moved on (sometimes for payment). There are others. Would be interesting to know if money changed hands between RSCC and zoos which ended up with animals from them - like Exmoor, Colchester, Wingham and Edinburgh. The open-then-closed-then-open again policy of his collection would make it difficult for anybody to keep track of where species end up. Harder now that he has moved across the country and back to being a private collection. It also concerns me how he is obtaining animals. Is offering decent amounts of money to a rescue centre in exchange for certain animals not paramount to purchasing them? We on ZC would crucify anybody that was a known animal dealer working with wild-caught animals.

I don't wish to sound like one of the David Gill obsessers, rather to caution those who faun over Dalton as the messiah bringing lovely new exotic species to the UK/Europe. I might be doing him a huge disservice but I'm just not convinced he is anything other than a rich westener who likes collecting rare animals for his own satisfaction. And that's not good enough.
 
tetrapod said:
We on ZC would crucify anybody that was a known animal dealer working with wild-caught animals.
.
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While I'm sure the majority would do so, this does not apply to all - and, certainly, if it is legally done, and if the wild populations from which animals are taken are able to absorb the losses they incur, I absolutely welcome the taking of animals from the wild.
 
sooty mangabey said:
While I'm sure the majority would do so, this does not apply to all - and, certainly, if it is legally done, and if the wild populations from which animals are taken are able to absorb the losses they incur, I absolutely welcome the taking of animals from the wild.
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Couldn't agree more - and not only legally, but in the least intrusive way possible.
 
sooty mangabey said:
While I'm sure the majority would do so, this does not apply to all - and, certainly, if it is legally done, and if the wild populations from which animals are taken are able to absorb the losses they incur, I absolutely welcome the taking of animals from the wild.
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Whilst not quite agreeing completely I do find myself nodding in agreement with this post. A perfect example is the recent acquisition of pangolins in the USA; whilst I know these animals need as much in-situ help as possible I don't think that importing wild caught specimens for zoos is wrong in any way. The amount that are trafficked for whatever reasons is totally out of order but if zoological societies are willing to import them and learn their husbandry then what's the harm? If they don't do it soon then maybe there won't be enough pangolins left to ever attempt captive breeding in the future.
 
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Regarding Tetrapods comments..his accusations are rather loaded and maybe its the collection owner who should answer them BUT,BUT,BUT...its the same old internet bravado isnt it? It simply is not fair that the accuser remains anonymous whilst asking for clarity from the accused.
 
Tim Brown said:
Regarding Tetrapods comments..his accusations are rather loaded and maybe its the collection owner who should answer them BUT,BUT,BUT...its the same old internet bravado isnt it? It simply is not fair that the accuser remains anonymous whilst asking for clarity from the accused.
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Tetrapod is only raising valid questions about the acquisition practices of the collection. Questions that I share. And I would be one of the Zoochat members that would not be happy with zoos just taking animals from the wild without any bigger purpose (conservation or research objective b.e.) behind it. Even if this happens legally. I like seeing odd species but not at all cost. And somehow that has started and closed his zoo twice and is now developing a new collection is raising questions.

And the way the pangolins got imported in the US is against any good conservation practice. How do you want to protect pangolins if you do not even sit down with the range-states on seeing how your ex-situ programme can help them protecting their pangolins. And I still have to see any plan of how keeping pangolins in the US is supporting the species as a whole.
 
Well he isnt a zoo is he?He is a private individual abiding by the law.Big Brother now has a user name it would seem.
 
He was a zoo the 2 times before he developed and sold the collection and the owner himself decides to share his information on social media. And everyone is free to ask questions based on the information available. No one is demanding a response from the owner and no one has made any accusations. And there is no witch-hunt going on, just the news posted in this tread led to some members to raise this. Like some people here seem to be a fan of the owner, some of us are more critical and we are all free to do so in a civilised manner.
 
Im sorry..and im going to have leave it at this because ,like most debates of this nature it tends to go round and round with someone trying to have the last word, but I simply cannot accept that taking anonymous pot-shots from behind a computer is in any way civilised,but then Im from another planet these days,or so it would seem.
 
DDcorvus said:
zoos have to consider several things when importing new species; It should be sustainable when they import animals. Both in- and ex-situ. This means you need to bring in larger groups of founders and that multiple zoos need to be involved.
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This simply does not happen for many species in public zoos. Among many examples in Europe are recent situation of Marbled Polecats (recommended by TAG but died out due to lack of interest) or Black-footed Cats (died out, then again a single pair popped up).

tetrapod said:
Would be interesting to know if money changed hands between RSCC and zoos
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Please refrain from making unfounded accusations behind persons back. I think for the sake of young members on this forum, you need a reminder it was not 'just posting a question'.

You can contact RSCC directly, ask about it, and tell us - this would be the right thing to do.
 
Tim Brown said:
Im sorry..and im going to have leave it at this because ,like most debates of this nature it tends to go round and round with someone trying to have the last word, but I simply cannot accept that taking anonymous pot-shots from behind a computer is in any way civilised,but then Im from another planet these days,or so it would seem.
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People have opposing viewpoints on subjects. That's how discussions and debates work. Trying to stifle it because you don't like the subject, by saying that people with a differing viewpoint to your own are "trying to have the last word" or are "taking pot-shots from behind a computer" is childish.
 
I will simply say ,that if you write a letter to,say ,the Times,they will not print anonymous material rather a name and a location(and privately you have to supply full contact details).NOW Im fully aware of internet "etiquette"(if i was the manager of Scunthorpe United for instance i may not ,for a variety of reasons want the fans to know i had opinions on porcupine enclosures) but this has had the unfortunate effect of ,at times,infringing libel laws,copyright,and common decency. Of course this is a forum for opinion(and long may it be so) but there is a big difference between offering thoughts on enclosure size for instance,or reptiles in New Zealand zoos and making spurious allegations with consequential assumptions ANONYMOUSLY! If youve got something serious to say then have the cojones to man(or woman) up and say who you really are.
 
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