ZooChat Cup Match #1: Prague vs Artis

[CGSwans]

Europe's answer to San Diego, or the urbane gentility of Amsterdam? Artis drew the unlucky short straw, coming up against the top seeded zoo in Europe. I reckon it might yet have been favourite, though, had the category been fish & invertebrates, small mammals or reptiles & amphibians. As it is it's going to have to battle it out on unfriendlier territory: large carnivores. What constitutes a 'large' and 'small' carnivore is up to you: polar bears are obviously large, and dwarf mongooses obviously aren't. Use your judgement for where to draw the line between them.

The concept behind this poll is explained here:
ZooChat Cup

In summary, the rules of the game are as follows:
- You may choose whatever criteria you like to decide how to vote, as long as it only relates to the category of 'large carnivores'.
- You can use whatever resources you like to inform your vote, including Zoolex, Zootierliste, the ZooChat gallery, trip reviews, zoo maps, books and wherever else. You don't have to have visited both zoos to vote.
- Votes are public and can be changed at any time before the poll closes.
- The aim of the game is to provoke debate. Post explaining why you voted the way you did, and why others should join you.
- The one thing you can't do is vote based on anything other than large carnivores.
- Voting closes in seven days.

Who wants to make the case for Artis to cause an upset?

 

[CGSwans]

I was slightly disappointed when I saw the category that was randomly assigned to this one, as I think if it were, say, reptiles it'd be very tight, and fish/inverts would have put the number one seed in enormous trouble. But I am committed to a fair and transparent process, so large carnivores it is. And though I don't think Prague's enclosures in this category are *outstanding*, exactly, they're a cut above Artis for both quality and quantity. Not a terribly difficult decision, this one.

 

[lintworm]

Who wants to make the case for Artis to cause an upset?

I will

Though it seems an unfair comparison when looking at the sheer size of the big cat collection of Prague, with additional goodies like Brown hyena, Artis has its own pros. As every modern zoo Artis has had to make choices when it comes to the collection they keep and I would say they do better here when compared with Prague. Artis is only 14 hectares in size and has given up keeping polar bears, Amur leopard, Spotted hyena, Snow leopard, Sloth bear, Tiger and Lynx in the past 15 years or so, because space is limited. Currently only Lion, Jaguar, African wild dog and "Polar" wolf are kept. So Artis has had the guts to tremendously downsize their large carnivore collection and now keeps the majority of them in fine enclosures, though the lions have got the short straw... Prague on the contrary has added new (sub)-species like Javan leopard and Malayan tiger where it did not really have the space and they thus preferred a bigger collection over animal husbandry. The Malayan tigers took up space for what would have been the perfect secondary Sumatran tiger enclosure and the same can be said for the Javan leopards and the Clouded leopard. Additionally Prague is still clinging on to their Polar bears which live in arguably the worst enclosure in the zoo. Artis enclosures are not without fault, but at least they have made brave choices, which in the end benefit the overall quality of the zoo.

 

[Giant Panda]

That's an interesting category, because it doesn't play to either's strengths.

First the worst, which I think pretty much cancel out: Artis's lions and Prague's polar bears. The latter are getting a new exhibit, though.

Prague's carnivore house has a strong collection, but not housed terribly well (leopard especially). In particular, I don't like that it puts inhabitants in close proximity to validated stress-inducers in the form of other carnivores and visitors. That nullifies the collection in my mind.

Overall, though, I agree Prague is stronger. Both zoos have so-so wolf and pinniped enclosures, and Artis's new jaguar exhibit left me uninspired. Prague's forested Amur tiger/leopard habitats and brown hyenas clinch it, although cliff-side snow leopards would remove all doubt.

EDIT: Fun game, by the way.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Prague's forested Amur tiger/leopard habitats and brown hyenas clinch it, although cliff-side snow leopards would remove all doubt.

I think my thoughts on the matter have already been well-summarised by others, but this point bears particular repetition - I reckon that the inclusion of snow leopards on the cliff face walk would vastly increase the overall quality of the large carnivore exhibitry at Prague. We can but hope for the future

Although I - unlike @Giant Panda - thought the new Jaguar exhibit at Artis was actually quite good, this is nowhere near enough for the aforementioned collection to rival Prague in this field. As such, Prague gets my vote in a heartbeat.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Has to be Prague, sadly - but this is one of those cup draws that pits two top teams against each other (like, say, Arsenal and Portsmouth) leaving some horrible little team to sneak through undeservedly (a Southampton, or a Stoke).

When I first saw the Polar Bears at Artis, in the mid 90s, it was a shock to realise that even European zoos could be appalling (on trips in a similar era I also saw Polar Bears at Duisburg and Gelsenkirchen, so i was rapidly disabused of any notions that it was all a zoological nirvana across the channel). However, i would agree with the point made by @lintworm, above, that Artis have done a good job of embracing the new realities of running a zoo in the C21st, and that they "do" large carnivores as well as , possibly, they might be expected to do. But, alas for them, not as well as at Prague.

 

[Shorts]

Has to be Prague, sadly - but this is one of those cup draws that pits two top teams against each other (like, say, Arsenal and Portsmouth) leaving some horrible little team to sneak through undeservedly (a Southampton, or a Stoke).

Sorry, I've got to pull you up on this, you're being plainly ridiculous -Arsenal haven't been a top team for a while now.

 

[vogelcommando]

It has to be Prague because the large crnivore-collection at Artis is realy very small and the enclosures are surtainly not state-of-the-art . Lion-enclosure ( quite ) small, African wild dogs VERY simple, wolves just OK and the new jaguar-enclosure a little dissapointing.
At Prague, which has MUCH more space, the big carnivore collection is much more diverse and althrough some of the enclosures are also not really large ( big cat-indoor enclosures, polar bear ) the overall enclosures are IMO better then the ones at Artis.

 

[CGSwans]

I will

Though it seems an unfair comparison when looking at the sheer size of the big cat collection of Prague, with additional goodies like Brown hyena, Artis has its own pros. As every modern zoo Artis has had to make choices when it comes to the collection they keep and I would say they do better here when compared with Prague. Artis is only 14 hectares in size and has given up keeping polar bears, Amur leopard, Spotted hyena, Snow leopard, Sloth bear, Tiger and Lynx in the past 15 years or so, because space is limited. Currently only Lion, Jaguar, African wild dog and "Polar" wolf are kept. So Artis has had the guts to tremendously downsize their large carnivore collection and now keeps the majority of them in fine enclosures, though the lions have got the short straw... Prague on the contrary has added new (sub)-species like Javan leopard and Malayan tiger where it did not really have the space and they thus preferred a bigger collection over animal husbandry. The Malayan tigers took up space for what would have been the perfect secondary Sumatran tiger enclosure and the same can be said for the Javan leopards and the Clouded leopard. Additionally Prague is still clinging on to their Polar bears which live in arguably the worst enclosure in the zoo. Artis enclosures are not without fault, but at least they have made brave choices, which in the end benefit the overall quality of the zoo.

I love this post, and that it only took the very first match for somebody to come up with an original argument I had completely failed to consider. *If* I thought the lion exhibit was acceptable I reckon you could have swayed me.

PS: you don't appear to have swayed *yourself* to vote for Artis yet.

 

[CGSwans]

Has to be Prague, sadly - but this is one of those cup draws that pits two top teams against each other (like, say, Arsenal and Portsmouth) leaving some horrible little team to sneak through undeservedly (a Southampton, or a Stoke).

Oh dear. You're really going to hate me when you see some of what's coming (purely by chance, I swear!).

 

[lintworm]

I love this post, and that it only took the very first match for somebody to come up with an original argument I had completely failed to consider. *If* I thought the lion exhibit was acceptable I reckon you could have swayed me.

PS: you don't appear to have swayed *yourself* to vote for Artis yet.

The lions have been on the waiting list for a new exhibit for years on the current parking lot, but it takes ages unfortunately to get things done... The exhibit is of great historic value as it is the oldest big carnivore enclosure, that lacks fences, in the Netherlands still in use for its original purpose.

 

[HOMIN96]

I reckon that the inclusion of snow leopards on the cliff face walk would vastly increase the overall quality of the large carnivore exhibitry at Prague. We can but hope for the future

Unfortunately, I don´t think that´ll ever happen, the bottom of the cliff is still in the flood zone, and chasing snow leopards around Prague during flood is not something anyone would fancy.

 

[NigeW]

This is a nice idea for a game - well done. A feel for Artis a bit though. They do some things very well, but they aren't going to beat Prague on carnivores.

Charming as Artis is, I think its going to be 'nilled' in this tie.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Unfortunately, I don´t think that´ll ever happen, the bottom of the cliff is still in the flood zone, and chasing snow leopards around Prague during flood is not something anyone would fancy.

Surely putting the holding much further up would be enough to deal with this?

Lintworm's argument is valiant, but is totally undermined by the lion enclosure

 

[HOMIN96]

Surely putting the holding much further up would be enough to deal with this?

The cliff is way to steep for that if you don´t want to spend a fortune just on holding pens. You have to decide, it´s either the bottom side of the cliff or the upper one, there is no middle path, but the space on the upper side is severly limited and I´m not sure if it would work well. from the visitor point of view.