ZooChat Cup Match #28: Pairi Daiza vs Rome

Large carnivores


  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .

CGSwans

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
A dangerous floater versus a zoo that's likely just along for the ride... but might cause an upset? The category: large carnivores.

ZooChat Cup

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Tomorrow, Duisburg vs Paris Vincennes.
 
I changed the thread title for you, to include Rome.

Pairi Daiza is very lucky to draw Rome on this one, though it still isn't guaranteed to win...
 
Both: Tiger (both have generic, Rome also has Sumatran)
Pairi Daiza: Binturong; spotted hyena; South African cheetah; Indochinese clouded leopard; snow leopard; lion; African leopard; giant panda; Asiatic black bear; Asiatic small-clawed otter; giant otter; Cape fur seal; Nepalese red panda

Rome: Northern lynx; Asiatic lion; North Persian leopard; maned wolf; Bosnian and Eurasian wolves; African wild dog; brown bear

Pairi Daiza has a more varied collection and wins this one. Neither collection had any great oddities, apart from perhaps Pairi Daiza's Cape fur seal.

Pairi Daiza has a far more interesting collection of marsupials.
 
The match I was waiting for, because here is my Pairi Daiza-rant :cool:

There are few zoos that annoy me more with their impertinence of building monuments, rather than top notch enclosures, than Pairi Daiza. That plus the omnipresent sound of bells and even more bells, real or as background-sounds..... Something that was interesting and new and certainly not overdone 5 -8 years ago has transformed into scenery driven atrocity. On top of that PD has taken in some animals, white tigers come to mind, way before their actual enclosures were finished only to keep them in virtual dungeons.

It is maddening, because on principle the idea of Pairi Daiza is a good one, that, were it to be executed with any form of restraint (whether that be amount of animals on show or amount of decorational elements), could be so intriguing. To me it is basically Beauval on steroids without the the taste and expertise nor the cleverness of sweeping you off your feet without being so braggadocious.

I have seen good, ok and not so good enclosures in Pairi Daiza, the lions and the spotted hyeanas stand out as particularly unfortunate to me, given the proximity to the visitor area and no real barrier I have repeatedly seen them being thrown little stones at, for the hyeanas to move.

That should not overshadow, that the general standard of enclosures at Pairi Daiza is good, at times even great.

But from what I have seen on pictures of the Bioparc Rome, I guess I have to vote for PD.
 
Both: Tiger (both have generic, Rome also has Sumatran)
Pairi Daiza: Binturong; spotted hyena; South African cheetah; Indochinese clouded leopard; snow leopard; lion; African leopard; giant panda; Asiatic black bear; Asiatic small-clawed otter; giant otter; Cape fur seal; Nepalese red panda

Rome: Northern lynx; Asiatic lion; North Persian leopard; maned wolf; Bosnian and Eurasian wolves; African wild dog; brown bear

Pairi Daiza has a more varied collection and wins this one. Neither collection had any great oddities, apart from perhaps Pairi Daiza's Cape fur seal.

Pairi Daiza has a far more interesting collection of marsupials.

It should also be mentioned Pairi Daiza also have Javan leopard, though only a single male at present.

Having visited PD I can safely agree with @SabineB; though some of the animals draw the short straw exhibit-wise, they certainly have a wide variety of mid to high quality exhibits.
Despite their over-the-top theming, Pairi Daiza is still one of the most interesting zoos I’ve visited. This coupled with what I’ve seen of Rome’s holdings makes it an easy choice for me. Pairi Daiza.
 
Well, Pairi Daiza is lucky to have a diverse collecition of carnivores for this match, so it got my vote. I also think Pairi Daiza would win if the category was ungulates, birds, or ectotherms.
 
Pairi Daiza should be punished based on their large carnivore holdings, but Rome isn't ready for that I am afraid.

From memory only Giant panda and Cheetah have a nicely looking enclosure that is not too small. The Lions & hyena have boring smallish enclosures, the Asiatic black bear one doesn't look to different. The white tiger enclosure is way overthemed, and barely has any cover for the animals. The worst is however that the zoo brings in species, before they have a proper enclosure for them. The white tigers (and before the leopards) had to spend years in an insanely small cage (which was newly built around 2012), the same for the Giant otters, who were kept in an enclosure without enough water (I don't know the current situation though). This irrational bringing in of species that they can't care for properly is just bad an inexcusable for a zoo with the resources of Pairi Daiza.

Many zoos in the coming rounds will be able to beat PD on large carnivores, but from memory Rome is not much better than PD. The Lion, Wolf and Brown bear enclosure are nice, but when I was there (10 years ago...) the Tiger were in small Hagenbeck style enclosures and the Leopards in small cages.
 
the same for the Giant otters, who were kept in an enclosure without enough water (I don't know the current situation though).

I think they are still in that glass bassin type enclosure at the foot of where the 'you have to pay extra to see expensive japanese fish'- house is next to the McD lookalike-diner.

Apart from large carnivores, the shoebill endlosure in Pairi Daiza is great!
 
A lot of the enclosures at Pairi Daiza are better than most believe. I personally liked the orangutan, gorilla and wombat enclosures, although the former two have grossly overthemed indoor areas (volcanoes with no use of height, and an enormous marble temple). The shoebill aviary as mentioned above is great, as is the water buffalo and the crested macaque enclosures.
However, amongst these pretty good enclosures we have the cages mentioned above, and the fact that, as lintworm correctly stated, the zoo brings in species long before they have an enclosure ready.
 
Pairi Daiza

What an interesting zoo. Having only just finished my visit (on a very sunny day I'm happy to announce) I am still trying to piece my thoughts together.

Everything you've heard about here is true. Essentially, imagine that a place like the Lost Gardens of Heligan or some other ornamental garden became a zoo and had an enormous Asian temple planted in the middle of it. That's Pairi Daiza. The zoo lies in a 160 acre abandoned monastery, meaning that despite their wheelchair friendly maps (showing which paths are easier to manoeuvre one on) the terrain isn't wheelchair friendly at all. Not only is it incredibly hilly, but other visitors not paying any attention to where they're walking causes trouble for wheelchair users as well. The theming is very lavish and over the top at points, though this doesn't always work against the animals. As the zoo is so huge we didn't get to see all of it, we missed the squirrel monkeys, reindeer, raccoons, pelican lake, capybaras and alpacas. But we got to see everything else. I'll go by section just like Planckendael with a summary at the end. The two sections that will be left out are Vallée de la Source (lakes, pelicans, capybaras and birds of prey) and Terre du Froid (reindeer, raccoons and bison) as we didn't get to either of those areas.

Porte du Ciel

There isn't much to see here other than the Oasis and the bird of prey show, the latter of which we gave a miss. The setting looks impressive in the shadow of the old clock tower, and I'm assuming this where all their birds of prey are kept (secretary bird, crowned hawk eagle etc). We did see what looked like a buzzard eagle as we passed by looking for the entrance to the Oasis, which is incredibly hard to find!! Once actually indoors the large rainforest house can feel very choc-a-bloc, but the rarities within (bear cuscus, New Guinea short-beaked echidna, northern bog lemming and Luzon rufous hornbill) are worth it. Further in this section is a paddock for dromedaries, and multiple bird aviaries for king vulture, silvery-cheeked hornbill, and multiple parrots. Nothing too noteworthy, but the section isn't particularly awful either.

Porte des Profondeurs

My least favourite area. The section consists of the Aquarium, the Crypte and a huge playground. The Aquarium and the Crypte suffer from Pairi Daiza's main problem; theming. Walking through the Aquarium you are led through nautical labs and trinket shops, something I would be perfectly happy with missing. The aquarium itself is ok, the highlight was the olive ridley sea turtle. Other than that there's nothing too fascinating in there. As for the Crypte, this area consists of an underground crypt that has been converted into a bat walkthrough (Egyptian fruit bats and Indian flying foxes), as well as a corridor with enclosures Palestine mole rats (which I missed) and naked mole rats, and a chamber home to multiple newt and toad species in vivaria. For someone with claustrophobia it's not great, but I pressed on to attempt to see the Palestine mole rats. If it wasn't for the mole rats and the turtles I probably wouldn't spend too much time here.

Cité des Immortels

This is the Asian area more or less, there are a few exceptions (two South American walkthrough aviaries next to each other, as well as an enclosure for giant otters). In regards to theming this is beautifully done, but again it just feels very over the top and not really zoo-like. The species list isn't bad; Siberian cranes, Sichuan takins, snow leopards, golden-cheeked gibbons, binturongs, red pandas and giant pandas. Neither are the exhibits for the most part. The walkthrough aviaries are well-done (as were essentially all walkthrough aviaries at the zoo), with species like boat-billed heron and roseate spoonbill. All of the main animal enclosures were good with the exception of the red pandas (quite hard to view) and the giant otters (rather small and in my opinion out of place). Seeing the pandas without having to pay in advance was interesting to say the least. Female and cub were outside together in one half whilst the male was inside asleep in the other. It's not hard to see why the pandas bred so fast, their enclosure is rather impressive compared to say Edinburgh and Madrid. The takins neighbouring the snow leopards is also a nice touch. Again, my main gripe is that there's more theming than there is animal space.

Terre des Origines

The largest section we visited in regards to land occupied, this is the African section, though the clouded leopards are temporarily behind the lion enclosure whilst a new spot for them in the Asian area is located. There are some very nice exhibits, including two savannah areas (one with buffalo, Burchell's zebras, blue wildebeest and impalas, the other with Rothschild's giraffes, ankole cattle and ostriches), an enclosure for a pair of female African elephants, a hippo enclosure with underwater viewing (sadly the water is awfully murky so not much hope of seeing anything), and the two gorilla volcanoes (one of the bachelor groups is housed with colobus). There are also some very nice bird species, including shoebills and open-billed storks. The carnivore areas (lions, spotted hyenas and cheetahs) are average at best, and there are some ideas that fall short (the hippo underwater is one, another is the idea of the volcanoes the gorillas live in, the height is very much wasted here). Here a few of the zoo's ethical dilemmas come to light; in the lemur walkthrough the staff actively encourage the stroking of the ruffed lemurs, and with the pair of gorillas from Vallée des Singes their begging behaviour that they learnt there is encouraged at feeding times. If it wasn't for these, I would be prepared to rate this as one of the, if not the best section in the zoo. But nevertheless it is still a top quality section for a zoo, and I came away impressed.

Lagune

This is a tiny section, comprised of a ship, a small lake, a squirrel monkey island walkthrough, three aquatic enclosures housing South American sea lions, common seals and African penguins, and an Australian area. The ship's interior has been re-converter into a reptile/amphibian/invertebrate house. Again, some nice species (a fantastic venomous section, New Guinea snapping turtle, Chinese alligator) but nothing too groundbreaking, and the layout feels very over the top again. The penguins and seals have lakeside enclosures with part of the lake accessible to the seals, something I was very happy to see. We didn't go onto the squirrel monkey island, but the Australian area is also very well put together, though a walkthrough with very aggressive Australian pelicans left alarm bells ringing in my head. The Tasmanian devil enclosure is the largest I've seen so far, and the koala house is also well designed. Sadly we missed the dorcopsis in the Australian aviary, which was a bit of a downer, but there's always Best I suppose. There's also an enclosure for southern cassowary, small but satisfactory.

Royaume de Ganesha

Finally, there's another very much Asian section. This area surrounds and includes an enormous Asian temple that has been built, and the same that has applied to the rest of the zoo so far applies here; theming is beautiful and nicely thought out, but swallows up the exhibit space. It's nice to see a marble temple, but whether it's necessary to house three Sumatran orangutans is another thing. The big cat enclosures here feel very squashed, and the white tigers one in particular. There are some jewels in the crown, like a water buffalo and Visayan warty pig mixed enclosure with actual rice paddies, a very large Sulawesi crested macaque enclosure, and a fantastically elaborate indoor burrow for Tasmanian wombats. The orangutan enclosures also aren't too bad, the one for the pair in particular (the one for the trio is ok but the temple is incredibly over the top). There are also three onshow elephant enclosures, one for a group of three elderly females, one for an African female and an Asian female living together, and one for a herd of six. I assume there's a bull offshow as the herd of six had calves present. The elephant areas are ok, the large one at the top housing the big herd is by far the best. However, here we experienced a call back to what we saw in Terre; the Asian elephants have free contact with staff. Every day at 1:30 and 4pm a single female is taken out of the main herd and ridden around the section (one staff member atop her shoulders, another with a stick walking behind and to the side of her), with a stop at a bath, as well as a few stops for the public to stroke her. Personally, I don't mind the walk and bathing aspect, but I think the riding is unnecessary and the stroking definitely not required. Regardless, the section is unbelievable in terms layout and theming. It definitely warrants a thorough explore, as there's all sorts of fascinating areas and species to see and to enjoy.

Summary

Again, this zoo is very confusing. There are plenty of great aspects to it; the species list does not disappoint and, to a degree, the theming is rather nice too. However, the laxness of staff with visitors touching the animals and allowing some animals to beg for their food raises some big question marks. The theming is over the top, more in some areas than others, and some places feel rather ridiculous. There are also play areas everywhere, and catering outlets too.
But, unfortunately, that is the future of zoos. Theme park-y zoos are doing better and better (hence why Pairi Daiza, San Diego and Loro Parque are listed as the best zoos of their respective countries on TripAdvisor) as, for the everyman, it's seen as a better day out. I didn't dislike Pairi Daiza and, for my sins, actually preferred it to Planckendael. But I can definitely understand why zoochatters frown upon it. The whole sellout aspect (owned by a billionaire) is very hard to miss.
Did I hate it? No. Would I be happy to revisit soon? Yes. As soon as the other two? Probably not.
A mixed bag through and through, but it's not hard to see why it has done so well with the public. Antwerp still wins out as my favourite of the three though.

FINAL SCORE: 4/5

For anyone who's interested to hear more about PD, above is my review of it when I visited last July. My final consensus was that I liked it (at least, more than Planckendael), but it’s not hard to see why it receives so much criticism.
 
Pairi Daiza is actually a zoo that grows more unimpressive with every new visit. It used to be an amazing bird park, with a bunch of mammals and a good reptile house. In 2010 the Cite des Immortels was an actual Chinese garden (and a huge one, with loads of crane species), The Terre des Origines did not exist yet. The Royaume de Ganesha was just opened, so no Orang utans, Komodo dragon and Wombat and only a few elephants...The Australian section was also not there yet. At that point the whole atmosphere was amazing as a combination between modern enclosures and many old elements. The bird collection was incredibly good at that point, but there were not many mammals. This was also before they started to become a real mainstream zoo...

The + point for PD's theming compared with many other zoos, is that the artifacts are actually real, the Hindu temple in the Royaume de Ganesha is an active Hindu temple and the Chinese garden was constructed by Chinese. It is incredible how much this zoo has changed in the past 8 years alone, but not for the better imo, it has now lost most of it's charm and become completely overcrowded.

I expect that in the coming rounds this Zoo will drop out, if not for large carnivores than for it's outdated way of treating elephants or fake gorilla volcano.
 
However, you're still happy to recommend it :D
Alicante to England, via Germany

Why not Pairi Daiza, which is hard on it's way to become one of Europe's most significant zoos.

It is still a must see zoo and will remain one for quite some time. It is still completely unique and some parts are certainly impressive, but overall I am not too fond of most developments ;)
 
I personally liked the orangutan, gorilla and wombat enclosures, although the former two have grossly overthemed indoor areas (volcanoes with no use of height, and an enormous marble temple).

:confused: Wait, there's a volcano in the Gorilla indoor exhibit, and a temple in the Wombat exhibit? Is there a specific reason why? I mean I'm all for a bit of theming, but this is ridiculous.
 
:confused: Wait, there's a volcano in the Gorilla indoor exhibit, and a temple in the Wombat exhibit? Is there a specific reason why? I mean I'm all for a bit of theming, but this is ridiculous.

When I said former two I was referring to orangutan and gorilla. The two bachelor groups of gorillas have indoor quarters inside a man-made volcano each, which though it makes more for an impressive sight is not used nearly as well as it could be (they don’t use the height at all for the animals).
And one of the two groups of Sumatran orangutans has indoors inside an enormous marble temple, whilst the other has them inside a large Southeast Asian style wooden lodge. Again, impressive exhibitry but not necessary for animal holding.

The wombats, though near a temple, have a perfectly adequate outdoor paddock, but their indoors is the real treat; it’s a burrow system built into a wall, the tunnels and chambers of which can be observed through glass.
 
I expect that in the coming rounds this Zoo will drop out, if not for large carnivores than for it's outdated way of treating elephants or fake gorilla volcano.

Well the way it’s currently going it seems two of the most collectionist zoos in Europe will be going head to head; Moscow and Pairi Daiza...
 
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