ZooChat Cup Match #44: Beauval vs Plzen (7)

Birds

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
C

CGSwans

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
Both of these zoos are capable of winning the Cup, but only one's getting the chance. Beauval breezed past Lisbon 21-zip on large carnivores, but Plzen's 22-6 margin over Basel, on small mammals of all things, doesn't begin to hint at the @lintworm inspired scare it had early in the debate.

This time? Birds. That rarities list versus that bird show.

Tomorrow: Burgers vs Amneville.
 
With the greatest possible respect for Plzen, which I think would win this category against all others save Berlin Z, Prague and Chester, I'm voting for Beauval.

The reason is simple, though perhaps unusual. Nowhere else - at no other zoo in the world - have I been as stunned, as left fully speechless, by a zoological display as I was by Beauval's bird show. I wasn't a huge wrap for the zoo as a whole, but if we are ever in that vicinity - or even within a couple of hours of it - I will pay too much money and drag my girlfriend there so her fundamental preconceptions of what it is possible for a bird show to be can be similarly up-ended. There must - must - have been comfortably over 100 birds in the air at once. At once!
 
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Hmm... one of my favourite zoos versus probably the biggest European zoo west of the Baltic that I've not actually visited yet...

Gonna have to wait to hear some arguments on this one!
 
Beauval doesn't have a bad bird collection either, going by zootierliste they have quite some nice parrot species and other rarities (Quetzal....)

The only thing really speaking for Plzen is their huge collection. But they have taken the overstocking of aviaries (with rarities) to a new level.... There were only very few aviaries that did not feel overcrowded and the Barn owl "aviaries" are just appalling beyond notice.

I don't know much of how Beauval's collection is housed, but currently I am leaning towards them as they also have a very good bird collection (though not as huge as Plzen) and apparently an amazing flight show, whereas Plzens aviaries are not that great....
 
I agree with CGSwans, the bird show at Beauval is amazing, so they get my vote for this alone.

I posted a video on Youtube of the bird display at Beauval:

 
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After re-watching that video I think Beauval gets my vote. Unless anyone wants to make a compelling argument for Plzen...?
 
I will make an argument for Plzen. I haven't actually been to Beauval and I don't know a huge amount about it and I would definitely like to hear something from someone who has visited about the quality of exhibits and Beauval beyond an obviously excellent bird show and a decent species list.

Just looking at the length of the species lists on ZTL from the 'expert search', it looks like Plzen has about 3x the number of bird species as Beauval (Beauval's collection is actually a lot larger than I was expecting - it's just that Plzen's is enormous).

Enclosure wise, many of Plzen's enclosures are quite small, but in terms of on show enclosures there are very few that are appalling. The 'bird islands' which holds most of the collection of temperate birds (and a few tropical ones) are not bad enclosures although there is a vast collection, the majority of these aviaries hold half a dozen + species and there are a lot of them dotted around the zoo. Many of them have a different subspecies of common pheasant and I think there are over a dozen subspecies, I doubt anywhere in the world can match that.

There are lots of other nice aviaries around too, there's a great indoor/outdoor tropical bird section in the Pygmy Hippo house, lots of birds held in the Philippines House in enclosures that are rather plain and typical but not bad I wouldn't say. There are also lots of open-top waterbird pond type exhibits, a number of large aviaries for birds of prey and waterbirds and such and lots of decently good and perfectly nice aviaries dotted around. @lintworm thinks these aviaries are overcrowded. I would definitely agree with the off show ones (more on that shortly), but I don't think any of the on exhibit aviaries were too overcrowded. Many had a large diversity of species, certainly more than you'd normally expect, but very few zoos hold so many small passerines and such and I think have birds that fill the different parts of the aviary, a ground bird, a water bird, a few of passerines and a medium sized bird, is not necessarily bad. Many of these aviaries with a large number of species, arguably overcrowded, had birds breeding in them (which suggests that the species mixes are carefully chosen by the zoo to be compatible - I have no doubt about the zoo's expertise in the bird breeding department) as well as rescued birds. Rescuing wild birds is something that I think is definitely commendable.

I think the overall standard of bird enclosures at Plzen is higher than the standard of rodent/small mammal enclosures and although they're not particularly inspiring or unique in terms of enclosures, I think the majority of enclosures are not minus points. (and the Pygmy Hippo tropical bird enclosure is particularly wonderful and I think the setting of the bird islands in a quiet bit of woodland - it's Plzen Zoo and botanical gardens so that planting is good - makes up for the standard enclosure styles)

I should also note for anyone who isn't aware of the massive size of Plzen's collection and the number of rarities, I know it's not the be all and end all (seemingly especially in this competition) but the size and number of rarities rivals any other zoo in the world. There are so many unusual and rare species that if you took just the bird collection you could easily have a stand-alone bird park that would be one of the biggest in the world. And that from an all-round zoo is very impressive.

Finally for the off show housing. It's very much got the feel of a private breeder type place and the enclosures aren't large or very pretty. It's not supposed to be though. Most of them seem of adequate size for the birds especially since the vast majority of species held are small passerines, and Plzen has great breeding success with lots of rare (zoo wise and endangered wise) species. And considering how willing the keepers/curators are to take people behind the scenes and show them this place means it's got to count for this competition.

A fantastic bird show like Beauval's is one type of amazing bird experience, sure. But being taken behind the scenes and given a tour of Plzen's bird breeding centre is the sort of zoo experience that can't be matched. It's certainly (one of?) the best zoo experiences that I've ever had.

If you're going to visit a zoo for birds, it's got to be Plzen. The only zoo in Europe that I think I would visit over Plzen for birds would be Walsrode.
 
I'd wholly agree with the analysis of @LaughingDove, above.

These are two of my favourite zoos, and I think they each have excellent bird collections. But that at Pilsen is just better - and, I would argue, is displayed very nicely as well.

It's worth remembering that Beauval started life as a bird garden - it only started developing as a mainstream zoo relatively recently - and it does have a choice collection of birds within its collection. However, the housing for most of these - close tot he zoo\s entrance - is fairly unremarkable, even if the greenhouse (it's not really a tropical house) is very nice. Through the rest of the zoo, birds appear as add-ons to the main animal stars, rather than being the stars themselves. The exception to this, of course, is the aforementioned show, which is genuinely spectacular (only that at Amneville, which featured falconers dressed in medieval costumes, riding horses, comes close). On the hole, though, the bird which are foregrounded at Beauval are the big, showy, charismatic species - which is absolutely understandable, of course.

I think what makes Pilsen so fantastic is that the aviaries that dot the zoo don't just feature birds that are spectacular, but, rather, there is an emphasis on those species which are usually overlooked elsewhere. The walk-in aviary for northern species, close to the tigers and bear exhibits, is one of my absolute favourites (I think this may be the location of the owl aviary decided by @lintworm, above).

I've never seen the bird show at Pilsen, although they do have one in the summer, in the wonderful old amphitheatre. I think this is possibly operated by an outside falconer, hired in for the season. But, even without Beauval's show, Pilsen would win my vote - as it would against pretty other collection of birds in Europe, apart from Walsrode.
 
I thoroughly agree with the analyses of both @LaughingDove and @sooty mangabey above. There is one thing that has changed a lot since LaughingDove's visit, though, and that is that the off-show holding for birds is now almost entirely empty, with most of the birds having moved on-show and the rooms now mainly being used for mammals and reptiles, with a few birds still dotted around here and there.

This is a bit double; on one hand it's very good for the birds that were off-show, as they're not indoors all the time anymore and now a lot of the extraordinary rarities (treepie, anyone?) can be enjoyed as they should - in properly designed and planted outdoor mixed aviaries.
However, for the birds that were on-show I'd say the situation has decreased, because no new aviaries were constructed when most birds moved on-show, and thus the aviaries now have even more birds in them.

I'd say Plzen definitely still should win this: the sheer variety of passerines is something I've never seen before (and likely never will anywhere else), and the bird collection as a whole definitely rivals the collections of Walsrode and Jurong, arguably the two best bird parks in the world.

That said, I really want to visit Beauval, and the main reason for that is their bird collection.
 
sooty mangabey said:
I'd wholly agree with the analysis of @LaughingDove, above.

These are two of my favourite zoos, and I think they each have excellent bird collections. But that at Pilsen is just better - and, I would argue, is displayed very nicely as well.

It's worth remembering that Beauval started life as a bird garden - it only started developing as a mainstream zoo relatively recently - and it does have a choice collection of birds within its collection. However, the housing for most of these - close tot he zoo\s entrance - is fairly unremarkable, even if the greenhouse (it's not really a tropical house) is very nice. Through the rest of the zoo, birds appear as add-ons to the main animal stars, rather than being the stars themselves. The exception to this, of course, is the aforementioned show, which is genuinely spectacular (only that at Amneville, which featured falconers dressed in medieval costumes, riding horses, comes close). On the hole, though, the bird which are foregrounded at Beauval are the big, showy, charismatic species - which is absolutely understandable, of course.

I think what makes Pilsen so fantastic is that the aviaries that dot the zoo don't just feature birds that are spectacular, but, rather, there is an emphasis on those species which are usually overlooked elsewhere. The walk-in aviary for northern species, close to the tigers and bear exhibits, is one of my absolute favourites (I think this may be the location of the owl aviary decided by @lintworm, above).

I've never seen the bird show at Pilsen, although they do have one in the summer, in the wonderful old amphitheatre. I think this is possibly operated by an outside falconer, hired in for the season. But, even without Beauval's show, Pilsen would win my vote - as it would against pretty other collection of birds in Europe, apart from Walsrode.
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That is indeed the owl aviary I meant, which is probably the most appalling bird enclosure I have seen in a zoo... The Siberian aviary is nice though, allthough also too overstocked for my liking.
 
Both: Common ostrich; greater rhea; common emu; elegant crested tinamou; Humboldt penguin; great white pelican; African open-billed, marabou and European white storks; Hadada and sacred ibises; Chilean flamingo; Cape barren and Hawaiian geese; Cape and chestnut teals; Chilean pintail; Eurasian and Chiloe wigeons; South African black, West Indian and lesser whistling, Indian spot-billed, North American wood, ruddy and mandarin ducks; marbled teal; tufted, red-crested and rosy-billed pochards; common eider; American black and king vultures; Stellers and white-tailed sea and bald eagles; Western Eurasian griffon and hooded vultures; Indian peafowl; Malaysian great argus; red-crowned, demoiselle and Indian sarus cranes; red-legged seriema; bush thick-knee; greater vasa parrot; red-fronted parakeet: Stellas lorikeet; Philippine cockatoo; European eagle owl; black-naped and pink-headed fruit and zebra and diamond doves; green imperial, Luzon bleeding-heart, western crowned and Nicobar pigeons; blue-winged and laughing kookaburras; collared kingfisher; Javan rhinoceros hornbill; common bronzewing; Asian black bulbul; Madagascar fody; Bali, bank and crested mynahs; Brahminy starling


Plzen
American white, pink-backed, spot-billed and Australian pelicans; Eurasian great cormorant
Goliath, green-backed, grey, black-crowned and Philippine rufous night, Javan pond, white-faced and eastern purple herons; little bittern; little and western cattle egrets; yellow-billed and Asian woolly-necked storks; hamerkop; Australian white, glossy, Madagascar crested, straw-necked and black-headed ibises; African spoonbill
Greater flamingo
American and Australian black ducks; Australian hardhead; American and Eurasian green-winged, Baikal, blue-winged, cinnamon, falcated, hottentot, versicolor, red-billed, Sunda, speckled and Berniers teals; bar-headed, greylag, Egyptian, magpie, lesser white-fronted, pink-footed, red-breasted, ruddy-headed and blue-winged geese; American wigeon; Argentine, northern and New Zealand shovelers; Bewicks, black-necked and black swans; black-backed radjah, paradise, ruddy and Australian shelducks; Baers, rosy-billed and common pochards; Chilean, yellow-billed and northern pintails; Ferruginous, flying steamer, freckled, Hawaiian, Macooa, ruddy, mandarin, maned wood, Mellers Muscovy, Old World comb, Patagonian crested, Philippine, white-winged, yellow-billed and Laysan ducks; Chinese spot-billed duck; common goldeneye; garganey; fulvous, white-faced, plumed, spotted and wandering whistling ducks; lesser, New Zealand and European greater scaups; Eurasian and hooded mergansers; crested screamer; smew
Western turkey vulture;, greater spotted and golden eagles; eastern red-tailed and northern Harris hawks; American and European kestrels; European peregrine; gyrfalcon; lanner and saker falcons; striated caracara
Chinese, Manchurian, Mongolian, Taiwan and Korean ring-necked, Khivan, Mikado, northern green, Sichuan, Persian, Zarudnys, Zerafshan, Edwards, southern Caucasian, Salvadoris, Vietnamese, Palawan peacock and Bianchis pheasants; grey and Vietnamese and Cochin-Chinese red junglefowls; black grouse; Barbary, white-necklaced, Cypriot chukar and Madagascar partridges; Asian blue, Gambels, harlequin, jungle bush and European quails; Australian brush-turkey; Chaco chacalaca; eastern crested guineafowl; white-crested kalij
Black, spotted and corn crakes; buff-banded and water rails; common moorhen; white-naped, eastern grey-crowned and sandhill cranes
Black-headed, black-tailed, grey, laughing, slender-billed and African grey-headed gulls; common ringed, Egyptian, European golden and African three-banded plovers; blacksmith, southern and masked lapwings; black-winged stilt; pied avocet; European thick-knee; collared pratincole; common redshank; common sandpiper; ruff; Eurasian oystercatcher
Black-cheeked and Madagascan lovebirds; black, Bourkes, golden-shouldered, hooded, scarlet-chested, turquoise, vernal hanging, swift, Port Lincoln ring-neck and blue-winged parrots; budgerigar; crimson, green, northern and eastern rosellas; Dammermans moustached parakeet; green military macaw; kea; iris, Mindanao, Mitchells, scaly-breasted, Sumba, yellow-fronted and marigold lorikeets; purple-naped lory
Boobook, ashy-faced, little, Philippine scops and burrowing owls; Central European barn and tawny owls
Tawny frogmouth
Barred, blue-headed wood, Stephens, Cape, Madagascar, European, red, ruddy and eastern oriental turtle, Chinese spotted, cinnamon and ruddy ground, Malay spotted-necked, island collared, Namaqua, peaceful, Senegal laughing, Socorro, white-eared brown, Indian emerald, pink-breasted, red-necked Sulawesi and bar-shouldered doves; beautiful, orange-fronted and superb fruit doves; common wood, Madagascar blue, , ashy wood, Philippine metallic, Wonga, western rock, pink, pink-necked green, stock, western crowned and Mindanao bleeding-heart pigeons; chestnut-naped, pied, silver-tipped, pink-headed, spotted and Sunda green imperial pigeons
Blue-naped mousebird
Common and Guira cuckoos; Philippine koel
Senegal turaco
Palawan, southern Sulawesi and Visayan tarictic and Luzon hornbills; northern carmine and red-throated bee-eaters
Greater yellow-naped woodpecker
Black-throated accentor; Indian red avadavat; Madagascar bilbfinch; Napoleon, red and fire-crowned bishops; blackcap; brush bronzewing; black-headed, Chinese red-whiskered, eastern and western white-eared, cream-striped, Himalayan, Layards, white-spectacled, ruby-throated, red-vented, Upper Guinea and chestnut bulbuls; northern bullfinch; Central Asian rock, house, light-vented, red-headed and black-headed buntings; island canary; African and common chaffinches; common crossbill; pied crow; fieldfare; black-throated, Gouldian, masked, plum-headed, red-billed and yellow-billed long-tailed, star, Timor zebra, trumpeter and chestnut-eared finches; diamond, red-browed and painted firetails; European goldfinch; blue-backed and Cuban grassquits; European and oriental greenfinches; Chinese grosbeak; hawfinch; blue-faced honeyeater; hypocolius; great kiskadee; Atlas horned, wood and black larks; black-throated, buffy, eastern moustached, red-winged, scaly, red-fronted, red-tailed, Siamese white-crested, spectacled, Sumatran and blue-crowned laughing thrushes; common linnet; Emei Shan liocichla; Maghreb and white-backed magpies; Asian and Iberian azure-winged magpies; chestnut-breasted and grand mannikins; black-faced, dusky, Indian scaly-breasted, Javan, Malaysian chestnut, pale-headed, white-headed and chestnut munias; golden-crested, pale-bellied, yellow-faced and Sulawesi mynahs; spottedand slender-billed spotted nutcrackers; Eurasian golden and Montserrat orioles; bearded parrotbill; blue-faced, tricolor and Fiji parrotfinches; redpoll; common, Moussiers, western black and white-winged redstarts; oriental magpie robin; white-crowned robin chat; long-tailed rosefinch; rufous scrub robin; Siberian rubythroat; European serin; red-backed shrike; Eurasian siskin; eastern fox, Sudan golden, Timor and Java sparrows; black-collared, coleto, emerald, Asian and purple glossy, Miombo blue-eared, European, golen-breasted, purple-backed, rosy, scissor-billed, short-tailed, white-shouldered and spotless starlings; barn swallow; chestnut-backed ground, grey-backed, mistle, Eurasian song, Japanese, Siberian and black-breasted thrushes; azure, dark grey and coal tits; Sumatran treepie; grey and white wagtails; oriole warbler; Bohemian and common waxwings; grey-headed social and western village weavers; black wheatear; chestnut-flanked and Kilimanjaro white-eyes; yellowhammer


Beauval
Tataupa tinamou
Abdims, yellow-billed and black storks; southern boat-billed heron; southern bald ibis
Caribbean and Chilean flamingos
African pygmy and emperor geese; Bahama pintail; black-bellied whistling duck; lake duck; red-shouldered teal; northern mallard; Radjah and common shelducks; hooded merganser; crested screamer
Andean condor; white-bellied sea, African fish, black-chested buzzard long-crested, East African tawny, steppe and bataleur eagles; augur, common, steppe and jackal buzzards; bearded vulture; Brahminy and red kites; Harris hawk; bearded, Himalayan griffon, Eurasian black and palm-nut vultures; secretary bird; crested caracara
Great, yellow-knobbed and northern helmeted curassows; golden pheasant; crested wood partridge; crested guineafowl
Blue, red-crowned, Siberian, southern grey-crowned, wattled and white-naped cranes; sunbittern
Black-necked stilt; wattled jacana
Black-headed, northern red-fan, Pesquets, red-bellied, eclectus and blue-headed parrots; yellow-winged blue-fronted, lesser white-fronted, red-crowned, red-lored, red-tailed, Cuban, Salvins, southern festive, vinaceous, yellow-shouldered and northern mealy amazons; blue-and-yellow, blue-winged, green-winged, great green, Hahns, hyacinthe, Mexican green military, red-fronted, scarlet and blue-throated macaws; blue-crowned, red-fronted and mitred parakeets; cardinal, collared, western black, yellow-bibbed, dusky and carmine-fronted lories; olive-headed, red-flanked, Stellas and rainbow lorikeets; green-thighed caique; cockatiel; citron-crested, Major Mitchells, rose-breasted, red-tailed black, salmon-crested, triton, Eleonora and lesser palm cockatoos; little corella; kea; golden and sun conures; Tanimbar corella; yellow-thighed caique
Rose-crowned fruit dove; Papuan mountain, speckled, Victoria crowned pigeon
Red-crested, Ros, Cuban, Eminss and green turacos; western plantain-eater
Golden-headed quetzal
Speckled mousebird
Guira cuckoo
Abyssinian and southern ground, red-billed, trumpeter, von der Deckens and great hornbills; blue-bellied and lilac-breasted rollers; green wood hoopoe
Bearded and red-and-yellow barbets; channel-billed and toco toucans
Yellow-crowned bishop; Asian fairy and western bluebirds; green broadbill; Asian black, red-whiskered and common bulbuls; northern, yellow-billed and red-crested cardinals; Andean cock-of-the-rock; red-billed leiothrix; common mynah; white-rumped shama;, superb, wattled and chestnut-tailed starlings; Brazilian, masked and paradise tanagers

Beauval has a good collection of birds, with a larger collection of raptors and parrots than Plzen. Overall, Plzen has a more varied collection and wins this one, especially as it has a far larger collection of perching birds.
 
@LaughingDove, @sooty mangabey and @Vision have all made great arguments for Plzen. The problem, though, is that they all boil down to the (true) argument that Plzen does conventional bird collections very well indeed. The logic is incredible collection + adequate exhibits = better zoo.

I am not arguing for a moment that the collection at Plzen is anything short of phenomenal, and the team there are doing an enormous amount with very little for some very rare species. But it doesn't reinvent the wheel in a way that Beauval's bird show does. This vote is an opportunity to recognise something more than species diversity. An opportunity to recognise innovation and creativity. Yes, Sooty, Beauval's birds are mostly the showy species. But what a show it is!
 
I am every month in Plzen and is certainly a great zoo with a great collection and variety BUT i disagree that the enclosures are good enough. Certainly some are and the most of them would be if they wouldn't be to overstocked. And in some enclosures that is a real problem because there are simply too many in one. For example the ones at the upper half of the zoo, there are 10 species in one enclosure where two would be good but not that many and i really hope it gets better when they build their new asian complex.
 
There is surprisingly little debate in this thread for a Match in which a single vote changing hands can swing the result...
 
CGSwans said:
I am not arguing for a moment that the collection at Plzen is anything short of phenomenal, and the team there are doing an enormous amount with very little for some very rare species. But it doesn't reinvent the wheel in a way that Beauval's bird show does.
Click to expand...

It is, perhaps, worth noting that Beauval"s bird show doesn't reinvent the wheel - it merely copies what Walsrode have been doing with theirs for years :p so if the perceived innovation of the show is the key factor pushing it ahead of what you yourself describe as a phenomenal collection doing an enormous amount with very little, I would argue this is grounded on a mistaken premise.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
It is, perhaps, worth noting that Beauval"s bird show doesn't reinvent the wheel - it merely copies what Walsrode have been doing with theirs for years :p so if the perceived innovation of the show is the key factor pushing it ahead of what you yourself describe as a phenomenal collection doing an enormous amount with very little, I would argue this is grounded on a mistaken premise.
Click to expand...

I didn't know this? I skipped the bird show at Walsrode. Is it on a similar scale?
 
For what it's worth, Jungle Park in Tenerife have also done the 'sky full of birds' finale and flocks of birds of prey etc for many years.
 
CGSwans said:
I skipped the bird show at Walsrode. Is it on a similar scale?
Click to expand...

Presuming you did not exaggerate with the figure of 100 birds in the Beauval finale, not quite; the Walsrode finale comprises about 30-40 birds in the air at once including several parrot species, scarlet ibis, ground hornbills, king vulture amongst others, after a show lasting about 35 minutes.

However, Walsrode does their show twice a day with different birds each time ;)
 
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