Mega zoo tour at Netherlands

[Kakapo]

Yes, I forgot to mention again Burgers, that is unique with the three covered ecodisplays. Altough I already mentioned as unique in my resume of the visit.

Maybe my opinions are strong (and maybe, as you said, are not expressed in the best way due to my lack of perfect domain of English), but I doubt a lot that they could be considered controversial. What I perceive is just everybody trying to refute whatever I say, and I'm not referring only to this thread, but to general tendence in whole Zoochat...

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Maybe there is something of a language barrier, as English is not your first language, but you come across as somebody who has very strong (and sometimes controversial) opinions. If you state those that strongly on an online forum, you can expect questions/remarks from others who have a different opinion. These are not attacks on you as a person, but solely on what you wrote above.

I can't help but feel that this thread would have been a lot more fun if everybody had made a little more effort to keep the tone light, and hadn't seized upon points of difference so aggressively. @Kakapo is very much as you describe, and yet there are plenty of people like this on the forum and for the most part difference of opinion is simply given the space it needs to coexist. Certainly debate is useful and productive, but I think personal trip threads are not always the best place for contentious issues.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

No, you was very clearly replying to ME. It's impossible to interprete it in other way. You replied me after quoting my message and mentioned snowleopard in third person mode while referencing to me.

I think you will find that it was @snowleopard quoted in my initial message and not yourself:

It is intriguing that the legendary zoo in Amsterdam has such awful signage and that you didn't enjoy Micropia at all.

I didn't visit Micropia at all so cannot comment on this point; I would, however, entirely disagree with the remark about signage quality - which was pretty good in my opinion!

 

[AWP]

What a pity that you had such a bad trip. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I understand reading your quite negative reports. I would rather read about the special species or enclosures and rarities that you did see, instead of those species that you missed.

I doubt you visited the proper Zoologische Museum in the Aquarium building of Artis, as it isn't the small number of fossils and shells you mentioned. Last time I visited it, the museum included a room with some taxidermed mammals, the Heimans diorama (a Dutch dune landscape) and a large room with a temporary exposition.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Of course that the eastern gorilla is notable and distinct at species level!!!!!!!!!!!! And of course that is one of my reasons to visit Antwerp!!!!!!!!!

If you have changed your mind since stating (repeatedly) in gallery discussion threads that you don't view the species split between Eastern and Western Gorilla as valid whatsoever, then this is all well and good and I therefore apologise however, you DID explicitly say in the early stages of this thread - when explaining why you had initially ruled out visiting Antwerp on account of the fact that it didn't have particularly exciting species other than Jungle Bush-quail and Viellot's Black Weaver - that the Eastern Gorilla was:

a nice critter, but not enough exciting for make worth the visit.

But as noted above, if you have subsequently changed your mind on this point I take back my initial remark and apologise

 

[AWP]

As for Natura Artis Magistra, the most important missed species are: Phalanger gymnotis (impossible to find in the "Forest" indoor exhibit), Petaurus breviceps, Perodicticus potto (sharing enclosure with pygmy marmosets, a mouse deer and an unsigned two-toed sloth, but impossible to spot a potto!),

It isn't impossible to see both nocturnal species, you just need much luck. Since the opening of the renovated Monkey House I saw the cuscus twice, once sleeping and once active near its nest box. As for the potto, I saw it once since it left "Jungle by Night" (see the Artis gallery).

 

[Batto]

and I will definitely rent a vehicle for the entire time.

Pretty much the quintessence of Kakapo's transport misfortunes, and a decision I can only verify, based on personal experience.

@Kakapo, lintworm and TeaLovingDave: since I dearly appreciate all three of you, it really pains me (and others) to see you bicker like that with one another.

May I suggest a solution? All three of you are cordially invited to visit WdG together. I'll make sure that you won't miss any of the rarities (and based on ZTL, I already have a few), will let you critique my enclosure signatures and serve you some lovely tea (indoors). And best of all: you don't need Ryanair to get to Greifswald.

 

[lintworm]

And best of all: you don't need Ryanair to get to Greifswald.

Problem is, I'll need Deutsche Bahn which in your opinion seems just as bad

 

[Batto]

I'll need Deutsche Bahn

Only if you insist on ignoring other options such as Flixbus, blablacar, Europcar, Sixt etc.

 

[Kakapo]

I think you will find that it was @snowleopard quoted in my initial message and not yourself:

No, no. You replied to snowleopard in that previous message that is left out of the disscussion and that you requote now (message #124), but you replied to me in the message that we are talking about and that forms part of this concrete piece of discussion (message #126).

 

[TeaLovingDave]

All three of you are cordially invited to visit WdG together. I'll make sure that you won't miss any of the rarities (and based on ZTL, I already have a few), will let you critique my enclosure signatures and serve you some lovely tea (indoors). And best of all: you don't need Ryanair to get to Greifswald.

I shall definitely get there eventually to be honest, the only reason I didn't consider a Stralsund/Greifswald day on my recent trip to Germany (instead visiting Potsdam to do a bit of historical sightseeing) was the fact that I would have had trouble getting back to Berlin after visiting WdG. At some point I'll have to make a dedicated visit to the area and stay somewhere closer, especially as this would give me an excuse to mop up Rostock too.

 

[Kakapo]

What a pity that you had such a bad trip. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I understand reading your quite negative reports. I would rather read about the special species or enclosures and rarities that you did see, instead of those species that you missed.

I doubt you visited the proper Zoologische Museum in the Aquarium building of Artis, as it isn't the small number of fossils and shells you mentioned. Last time I visited it, the museum included a room with some taxidermed mammals, the Heimans diorama (a Dutch dune landscape) and a large room with a temporary exposition.

Oh, AWP, I had not a bad trip! I'm a positive person and hence I always felt the balance as positive. It's sad that you perceive these messages as so quite negative! It's not a negative report, but a neutral one. I just had bad luck with many issues in transports, moneys, delays or weather, but I also mention how I solved each problem so these solved problems are positive. And not to forget other very positive things I mentioned, for example the meeting with the beautiful person that is vogelcommando! Or the kindness of my hosters or the persons that guided me in some way

If is the list of not seen species what makes you perceive the message as negative, there are two reasons for put these lists here instead the list of seen species: first, the list of seen species would be muuuuuuch longer, and hence more tiring to write and to read, and second, the seen species will be added after to my list in the List of Species Seen post, and the photographed ones will go to the Gallery (be patient, this will take a long time). So it would be redundant. But if anyway you want a list of the species seen in a particular zoo of the ones that I've visited, I would be enchanted to send it to you by PM, you choose if alphabetically, taxonomically or chronologically. (I already have the lists handwriten, so it will not be difficult for me)

Oh, really? Then for sure I miss at least a part of the museum! Now I understand why it's said to be good labelled: just I saw a different thing! I remember the Heimans diorama, that is in darkness and illuminates when one step in, and contain only the Dutch common names of the animals. But for sure I didn't see any room with mammals! Only seashells, echinoderms and fossils plus the diorama.

 

[Kakapo]

If you have changed your mind since stating (repeatedly) in gallery discussion threads that you don't view the species split between Eastern and Western Gorilla as valid whatsoever, then this is all well and good and I therefore apologise however, you DID explicitly say in the early stages of this thread - when explaining why you had initially ruled out visiting Antwerp on account of the fact that it didn't have particularly exciting species other than Jungle Bush-quail and Viellot's Black Weaver - that the Eastern Gorilla was:



But as noted above, if you have subsequently changed your mind on this point I take back my initial remark and apologise

No, I don't changed anything, and I NEVER stated in the whole history of Zoochat that what you said, as I NEVER considered it in the way that you are associating with me. I always accepted the eastern gorilla as a different species since the same moment of the spliting (that happened much previous to the era of the "split-all-that-you-can").

Your quotation is still being valid: the eastern gorilla would be not enough exciting for make a visit for itself alone (basically because I already had a photo of a taxidermy specimen). If I decided to include Antwerpen zoo in my plan is because checled ZTL and saw that there are much more treasures that the ones that I perceived initially. The fact of being or not enough exciting for itself to make a visit to a place or not, has NOTHING to see with the consideration of the validity of a taxon.

I accept your apologies even when they're for "changing my mind" (a thing that didn't happened at all) instead for your wrong considerations about how I said or viewed some things. By my hand, we're in peace

 

[Kakapo]

It isn't impossible to see both nocturnal species, you just need much luck. Since the opening of the renovated Monkey House I saw the cuscus twice, once sleeping and once active near its nest box. As for the potto, I saw it once since it left "Jungle by Night" (see the Artis gallery).

Oh yes, you know what I mean. Let's not be so technically precise, you underestand me perfectly. If you want more precision, both species was impossible to see... for me in the visit moment. Not for everybody everytime. Since an animal is inside a public viewable exhibit, it can never be considered as "impossible to see", but you know that with this expression I just mean "you need much luck to see". And I'm glad that you're this lucky person! Certainly, living in the Netherlands and being able to visit these zoos various times, makes things easier

 

[TeaLovingDave]

but you replied to me in the message that we are talking about and that forms part of this concrete piece of discussion (message #126).

Snowleopard remarked that he was surprised to hear that the signage at Artis was awful (#122)
I noted in reply to him that in my opinion it is actually pretty good (#124)
I replied to you to clarify that I was replying to his mistaken impression that you thought the signage throughout the collection was awful (#126)
You then said that you never said all the signage was terrible and that I should re-read your post (#128)
I agreed and pointed out that I was replying to snowleopard, not you (#129)
You then said I was clearly replying to you all along (#134)

So the discussion in question refers to posts made before I ever directly replied to your stance on the signage in the aquarium and butterfly house (#126) but given it is now going in circles I think we might as well leave it alone

I always accepted the eastern gorilla as a different species since the same moment of the spliting (that happened much previous to the era of the "split-all-that-you-can").

It was split in 2001, to the best of my recollection - which is within the timescale you have previously cited as marking the start of the splits you don't accept:

almost every one done after the molecular taxonomy fashion boom, that coincides more or less with those done after 2000

I'd root out the specific occasions where you addressed your stance on this species in the gallery, but it's near-impossible to find specific comments in there ever since the forum software changed. Either way, I've apologised now that you have made it clear you now accept the species as distinct.

Shall we bury the hatchet and leave things be?

 

[Kakapo]

Pretty much the quintessence of Kakapo's transport misfortunes, and a decision I can only verify, based on personal experience.

@Kakapo, lintworm and TeaLovingDave: since I dearly appreciate all three of you, it really pains me (and others) to see you bicker like that with one another.

May I suggest a solution? All three of you are cordially invited to visit WdG together. I'll make sure that you won't miss any of the rarities (and based on ZTL, I already have a few), will let you critique my enclosure signatures and serve you some lovely tea (indoors). And best of all: you don't need Ryanair to get to Greifswald.

You're the best, Batto! This note of humour was sort of needed in this thread (tough I thing that a tyrannosaur with powerful jaws and ridiculous arms, would not fight with the arms, hehe). Maybe some year I end in WdG - is not an exciting place to me species-wise, but it make feel good to meet a zoo founded and run by a Zoochatter that I also appreciate.

P.S. As mentioned somewhere before in this thread, I don't drive, so I can't rent a car. Tough having a driving license, the only time I drived was during the driving license exam - and that happened about 11 years ago. I prefair to have issues and problems with the trains and planes, than lose my life, hahaha

 

[Kakapo]

Only if you insist on ignoring other options such as Flixbus, blablacar, Europcar, Sixt etc.

Anyway, first we need a plane to Germany... and for some years I think that I will do not travel to Germany again (having been three times here and saw the most important zoos).

Finally I reached the end of the thread, hehe. I hope it will develop more positively from this point

 

[Kakapo]

Snowleopard remarked that he was surprised to hear that the signage at Artis was awful (#122)
I noted in reply to him that in my opinion it is actually pretty good (#124)
I replied to you to clarify that I was replying to his mistaken impression that you thought the signage throughout the collection was awful (#126)
You then said that you never said all the signage was terrible and that I should re-read your post (#128)
I agreed and pointed out that I was replying to snowleopard, not you (#129)
You then said I was clearly replying to you all along (#134)

So the discussion in question refers to posts made before I ever directly replied to your stance on the signage in the aquarium and butterfly house (#126) but given it is now going in circles I think we might as well leave it alone

Oh, I think that now I vaguely understand (but it's a complicated path!) so all was a question of me replying to your posts that I believed to be just disagreeing with me, and actually you was agreeing with me and explaining Snowleopard what I actually said. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

It was split in 2001, to the best of my recollection - which is within the timescale you have previously cited as marking the start of the splits you don't accept:

almost every one done after the molecular taxonomy fashion boom, that coincides more or less with those done after 2000

I'd root out the specific occasions where you addressed your stance on this species in the gallery, but it's near-impossible to find specific comments in there ever since the forum software changed. Either way, I've apologised now that you have made it clear you now accept the species as distinct.

Shall we bury the hatchet and leave things be?

And what? It was spilt in 2001. And the molecular spliting era begans more or less after 2000. That means that this is the point from which I find many of the divisions unacceptable, analyzing case by case, with a margin or +/- a pound of decades upper or lower. For example Timon, a genus purposed as distinct of Lacerta at same time than Gallotia, is a genus that I still considere as Lacerta, as Gallotia was totally accepted by everybody by the time that I met it, and Timon was not, still being called Lacerta everywere. Species (or other taxa) spilt in 2018 of after, can be accepted too just if it's logic to spilt it, as explained zillion times over the whole Zoochat.

You wont find any occasion in that I addessed my stance on this species in the gallery, as I never considered it as a subspecies of the pan-gorilla, but always as a different species. I accept the species as distinct now, because this is what happened since ever.

I'm glad that you bury your hatchet Mine never has been unburied, so I don't need to bury it again

 

[Batto]

as this would give me an excuse to mop up Rostock too.

As well as Vogelpark Marlow, Ozeaneum Stralsund, Wildpark MV, Heimattierpark Greifswald and Kamelhof Sternberger Hof.

 

[Batto]

- is not an exciting place to me species-wise,

Just wait for the moment when I carefully open the enclosure... As @GiantPanda might testify, the presentation of WdG is very likely to give you a new appreciation of species you think you're all too familiar with.