I don't think that would even stop them. Look at what happened with Keiko. Most people don't know, or care, what happened after he was "freed".
Bronx Zoo Happy the elephant 'unlawfully imprisoned' lawsuit claims
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I don't think that would even stop them. Look at what happened with Keiko. Most people don't know, or care, what happened after he was "freed".
Yi Qi
Well-Known Member
From the images I've seen, they seem to be dedicated to entertainment only (they even took a freaking giraffe on a leash at some Toys R' Us). I already don't like it.
Maxine has died.
Maxine, A 48-Year-Old Asian Elephant, Has Been Euthanized at the Bronx Zoo > Newsroom
Also, an update on the Happy situation.
NY Judge Grants Habeas Order for Bronx Zoo Elephant
Maxine, A 48-Year-Old Asian Elephant, Has Been Euthanized at the Bronx Zoo > Newsroom
Also, an update on the Happy situation.
NY Judge Grants Habeas Order for Bronx Zoo Elephant
Both very sad developments...
~Thylo
~Thylo
Anthromorphism and rising cultural trends lead to the end of an era. I wish Mr. Breheny all the best in his efforts to determine the fate of the elephant program at Bronx. An earnest director who brought us the Madagascar complex *if I remember correctly* as well as a decent Speke's Gazelle exhibit and a revenue-generating ropes course and zipline.
I do as well, seems like a lose lose situation all around feeding off of misinformation and flat-out deception...
I love what Mr. Breheny has been doing for Bronx. On top of those developments he's really begun to turn things around for the collection in the wake of the 2009 budget cuts. The second floor of World of Birds received needed touch-ups, the Children's Zoo was almost completely renovated, half of the Zoo Center was redone for monitors and giant tortoises, several new individual enclosures have popped up here and there across the zoo, and the majority of the enclosures in World of Reptiles have been redesigned/renovated to be much better than they were before with similar developments being made to a lesser extent in the Mouse House, JungleWorld, CGF, Madagascar!, and Birds of Prey. From a collection standpoint he's given species already present at the zoo much-needed new enclosures (ex Slender-Horned Gazelles, kiwi, elephant-shrew) and improved the already great collection with additions such as white rhinoceros, gharial, pika, cock-of-the-rock, Gray's Monitor, and so on. Obviously he is not the sole person behind all these great improvements nor will he be the only one to praise should their loosely discussed future exhibits come to pass, but he's had a huge hand in taking one of America's best zoos to even better places and I think it's incredible. My only complaint is it feels as though CPZ, PPZ, and Queens have been left out a bit, though only time will tell what the WCS plans to do with them.
~Thylo
Exactly the same argument can be used that every New Yorker who owns a dog or a cat should give the pet to the countryside where the pet would have more space.
Remember, if one believes that animals have rights, rights do not depend from size or circumstances. A 6 foot man cannot have more rights than a 3 foot child, an elephant cannot have more rights than a dog or a mouse.
New York rats are autonomous beings too, and wish physical and mental comfort from exterminators or cats. Commuters in the New York underground may face an interesting future.
You do not remember correctly. Mr. Breheny was in charge of the Children’s Zoo when Madagascar was conceived and built. Think Steve Sanderson...
But agree on the best wishes for what’s ahead.
@reduakari Steve Sanderson... I'll look into him. Thanks for the correction!
(P.S. what would you do with the elephant exhibit should they move Patty and Happy to other facilities?)
bigfoot410
Well-Known Member
It is so sad to hear of Maxine's passing. She has been at the Bronx Zoo (as have Happy and Patty) well before I was born. I hope Happy and Patty can also pass in their home with keepers and staff who love and care for them. It also saddens me that the zoo will no longer hold elephants once they die (or move).
For the current elephant exhibit: I could see it being adapted to an additional Indian rhino exhibit or a large takin yard. However; I'd rather they make a larger renovation (more grass and shrubs) and a change in the fencing and go for another predator species; dholes, cheetahs (discuss that they are in Africa and Middle East) or an Asian Bear species could then be added. It would add additional variety to Wild Asia. I guess Japanese Macaques could also work (it would be almost too big for them).
For the current elephant exhibit: I could see it being adapted to an additional Indian rhino exhibit or a large takin yard. However; I'd rather they make a larger renovation (more grass and shrubs) and a change in the fencing and go for another predator species; dholes, cheetahs (discuss that they are in Africa and Middle East) or an Asian Bear species could then be added. It would add additional variety to Wild Asia. I guess Japanese Macaques could also work (it would be almost too big for them).
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Remember when we were hoping from a priorities announcement a few years ago that there might be a plan to re-establish the elephant breeding program and create a matriarchal herd? There's been no indication of any intentions at all other than Breheny saying the zoo would never again exhibit elephants without a matriarchal herd. Three seasons of THE ZOO, another development under Breheny, has probably brought in a good bit of money and a vast amount of attention. He's excellent; if anyone could develop an elephant program, he'd be the one.
For now, though, the AZA could demand they be relocated. Even individually, Patty has always been aggressive to Happy, so I have my doubts that they can be exhibited together, but the situation of two ladies needing to be solo, did not stop the Buffalo girls from being sent to Audobon. The zoo is adamant about them living their days out here with their caretakers, but surely wouldn't put their AZA accreditation on the line... I wonder how this can possibly turn out happily...
This probably shouldn't matter as much as the clinical overview, but unlike most zoo residents, we become attached to elephants. I would miss Happy and Maxine more than I can say, and I'd be equally sad thinking of future generations of urban NYC dwellers not having the joy of witnessing an elephant.
For now, though, the AZA could demand they be relocated. Even individually, Patty has always been aggressive to Happy, so I have my doubts that they can be exhibited together, but the situation of two ladies needing to be solo, did not stop the Buffalo girls from being sent to Audobon. The zoo is adamant about them living their days out here with their caretakers, but surely wouldn't put their AZA accreditation on the line... I wonder how this can possibly turn out happily...
This probably shouldn't matter as much as the clinical overview, but unlike most zoo residents, we become attached to elephants. I would miss Happy and Maxine more than I can say, and I'd be equally sad thinking of future generations of urban NYC dwellers not having the joy of witnessing an elephant.
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To the best of my knowledge the zoo will not be creating a breeding herd or be constructing a new exhibit for elephants in the future. This does not mean, however, that there will never again be elephants at the zoo once Patty and Happy are gone.
Maxine's death is a new and rather unexpected development, as is the lawsuit, and combined they may force Bronx to send the two girls out despite what they initially planned or want. I highly doubt the AZA would threaten to remove the zoo's accreditation should the zoo decide to keep them, though. It's possible of course and I don't think Bronx is by any means above the AZA's rules, but this isn't Pittsburgh, Bronx is one of the top collections in the country, a top breeder for many program species, and has a record of excellent welfare, breeding success, and program management. I have a feeling the AZA wouldn't want to risk losing them over the relocation of two very elderly elephants (the relocation of which could potentially kill them mind you), but you never know.
I have a feeling Bronx will continue to exhibit Asian Elephants past Patty and Happy's departure, though unfortunately I doubt we'll be seeing any calves there. I think it would be a mistake for the zoo to not continue to exhibit the species, they are simply too integral to the WCS's mainstream conservation initiatives. We will simply have to wait and see what they decide to do in the end, as these new developments could change things drastically.
~Thylo
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
"This isn't Pittsburgh" says it all. This would be precisely the place to breed again. When commenting, Breheny said, "We'll never again exhibit elephants in this way again." .That left a tiny opening that they may be planning to exhibit elephants again. But it might be hard for the AZA to give WCS a pass when Buffalo has been compelled to say farewell to very-much- beloved Surapa and Jothi who are virtually identical in age to Happy and Patty.
I was very surprised by both of these developments, THE ZOO showed Patty 18 months ago getting a positive trunk wash and starting treatment for TB. I hadn't seen Patty and Max on exhibit since that episode aired and assumed it was Patty who might have been under the weather. I also don't know if P and M were separated after that diagnosis and how that could have affected Max.
I do agree that Bronx would be a great zoo to start a breeding program. They have excellent conservation programs for the species, and they have plenty of land to build a breeding complex on. Unfortunately I think the zoo has other priorities, though, and other plans for much of the currently unused exhibit space. The AZA may indeed ask Bronx to move their elephants, I'm just not sure what will happen at this point.
~Thylo
And there’s still the issue of the Habeas Corpus being granted. There is still the possibility that the courts will be brainwashed by the NhRP into legally declaring Happy a person and having her forcibly removed from the zoo, thus getting the zoo booted out of the AZA, similar to what happened with the Toronto Zoo years back.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Precedent would help "rights" groups not only in their efforts to force zoos to relinquish their elephants, but eventually all animals. They have merely begun with the largest and most human animals. Canada has passed a law deeming orcas "non-human persons," and as such, may not be exhibited in human care. Marineland's remaining orca is grandfathered in, but when she dies, there will be no more on exhibit anywhere in Canada. "Rights" groups are also pushing for other species who have recognition of self (elephants, apes, magpies, orcas) to be released from human care. I'm afraid this is just the beginning.
I wonder why the zoo doesn't argue that all of its animals are property, owned by the WCS. Property may not be taken away legally unless, in the case of animals, there is persistent cruelty or neglect. The Zoo has been certified by the AZA, a rating by the governing association of animal experts, which of itself rules out neglect or cruelty. In addition, there are still quite a number of other facilities which exhibit lone elephants who do not get along with any others, like Patty will be, setting a precedent. Why do we never hear the sensible arguments, only the nonsense from the extremists?
Btw, does anyone know the status of Patty's TB? The Zoo related the initial positive trunk wash and the onset of meds, but I never understood why they claimed she didn't need to be quarantined. I can't help but wonder if being around TB could have taxed Maxine's immunity, bringing about her recent problems. There was never any word about health issues until she died, and I confess that I was quite stunned at the announcement.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
The "rights" groups advocate sending all elephants to sanctuaries such as the Elephant Sanctuary in Hohenwald, TN or PAWS (Performing Arts Welfare Society) in CA. There are a few others, but these extreme groups decry breeding, so they claim that sanctuaries that have had live births are as bad as zoos. The founders of ES and PAWS are very vocal in their support of these groups, and a lot of PR, like In Defense of Animals' annual "Ten Worst Zoos for Elephants" publication, has made things more difficult. It would actually be easier if there were no other options once "sprung from the clink," but the mere presence of places oh-so-pleasantly called "sanctuaries" featuring thousands of acres actually makes it easier to rule that they would be in good hands and should be sent away....
The number of zoos who have succumbed to this pressure has reached almost 20, but thankfully, most of the rest have invested in new, greatly-expanded facilities that are beyond reproach. Zoos with much smaller footprints have made it possible for their elephant exhibits to continue. It's gotten so that IDA has much less to complain about, and now to even come up with 10 "worst" each year, they have to claim that zoos are bad just because they breed. The Bronx campus is so large that it would be shame if space couldn't be allotted for a new elephant program. The thought of a major city like NYC not to be able to show children what a real live elephant looks like is, to me, a point beyond which these "rights" groups will be dictating whether we even have zoos exhibiting animals.
I thought it over. The plan of creeping personhood to animals will fail. The novelty will wear off and people realize that actual situation of animals remained the same (Sandra the orangutan) to ended tragically (the killer whale Keiko/Willy). Neither Happy will be better, because her own agressive character makes her fight other elephants.
Besides, the logical error inherent to the concept of 'non-human humans' will produce problems as soon as it is applied more widely. For example, when an elephant injures itself in the sanctuary. Any organization can appoint itself a legal representative of the elephant and sue the sanctuary in turn. I can think of dozens of such nonsense, comic or sad outcomes.
More important is the Bronx Zoo runs lots of good conservation projects of wild elephants. Eles at Bronx are the only live representatives to reach 10 m or so people in the New York area. The groups should realize they make saving elephants more difficult. They should turn to more meaningful helping wild elephants. Unless they are human parasites, trying to make money off pestering a honest business.