The success rate of big cats AI isn't big at all.
ZSL London Zoo Sumatran tiger Melati killed by Asim
- Thread starter oflory
- Start date
The success rate of big cats AI isn't big at all.
Personally, I think a new pair is the way to go. The keepers would probably welcome a fresh start; following the loss of Melati, who they have cared for most of her life, worked with every day for seven years, and watched raise two litters of cubs, to a new male they have yet to build an attachment to. While the keepers are no doubt professionals, who can see his actions as (semi) natural; it would be near impossible not to feel at least some resentment given their relationship with Melati.
Usually, I’d imagine such feelings wouldn’t even be considered; however London Zoo is in the unique position of being the species coordinator and if there is any doubt in their mind over Asim’s viability as a breeding male, they have the ability to shift him on and will likely do so.
Australasia has many unpaired tigers of equal or higher genetic value to the European population that Melati (a high ranking female). My guess would be one of these will be imported; combined with one of the most genetically valuable tigers in Europe.
Usually, I’d imagine such feelings wouldn’t even be considered; however London Zoo is in the unique position of being the species coordinator and if there is any doubt in their mind over Asim’s viability as a breeding male, they have the ability to shift him on and will likely do so.
Australasia has many unpaired tigers of equal or higher genetic value to the European population that Melati (a high ranking female). My guess would be one of these will be imported; combined with one of the most genetically valuable tigers in Europe.
Exactly, not to mention expensive and uncessary when there are other males out there of equal (or near equal) genetic value, who can breed naturally.
He has to leave London, however important his genes are! If he kills another female there it will be a PR disaster
If they want to risk him killing another female it needs to be somewhere where it won't make the national TV news! London zoo is not the place!
Exactly. This reminds me rather of the gorilla disaster with silverback Kesho and the unrelated baby 'Tiny'- again, there were 'positive' signs before they tried the actual introduction, which was bound to have a bad outcome. Lots of bad publicity then too.
Stuart Sadler
Member
Towards the end of this piece it seems to confirm a new pair. Zoo 'well aware' of tiger-death risk
I don't think it was that much rushed ...in Jihlava, the tiger pair was introduced just a few days after the male's arrival too and it worked fine.
Asim's situation at Heidelberg was slightly different though. The female he was introduced to was very young (transferred from her original zoo at 13 months) and wasn't even 18 months old when they were introduced. She just wanted to play rather than mate. Asim wasn't interested in playing and she became frightened of him very quickly. Hence the choice was made to transfer Asim to Ebeltoft and introduce her to another adult male.
At Heidelberg the same female had similar issues when introduced to the replacement male. She was finally moved to another collection and paired up with a much younger male. She has since settled in well with him
It doesn't matter if Asim and Melati were introduced the day he arrived, a week later, a month or years after the transfer. Tragically most big cats are so unpredictable that the outcome may have been the same at any time.
At Heidelberg the same female had similar issues when introduced to the replacement male. She was finally moved to another collection and paired up with a much younger male. She has since settled in well with him
It doesn't matter if Asim and Melati were introduced the day he arrived, a week later, a month or years after the transfer. Tragically most big cats are so unpredictable that the outcome may have been the same at any time.
An 18 month old female wouldn't be mature enough to breed would it? Maybe not surprising she only wanted to play. I think with strange adults, ensuring the female is in oestrus during introduction is a better safeguard against aggression, the male is focused on mating, not defence or repelling her.
Last edited:
International news in fact. Media outlets in Washington have been reporting on it; as well as it being the trending search in zoo news in New Zealand. Melati was born in Australia and is well known to people in the Australasian Zoos due to her being only one of three tigers we’ve exported outside of the region in the 40 years we’ve kept Sumatran tigers.
You’d know more about gorillas than me @Pertinax; but introducing an infant to an unfamiliar blackback or silverback would almost certainly end in disaster wouldn’t it? The only other similar introduction (albeit an unintended one) I can recall reading about was that of N’Pongo and her infant daughter to the silverback, Jambo at Jersey Zoo. While biologically the father, the situation was complicated (as I’m sure you’re aware) by N’Pongo not being an integrated member of the troop in Jambo’s eyes.
I really don’t envy the ZSL PR department. With the many fire-fights they’ve had to manage at both sites in recent years (gorillas/tigers at London, rhino/elephants at Whipsnade) it must seem like a thankless job sometimes.
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
As I understand it, one of the aims of having a coordinated studbook is to try and ensure that the genes of 'difficult' animals ARE passed on. It hardly seems wise to select for docility if you are trying to NOT to in some sense domesticate a species.
Certainly not. I’d say it’s a miracle she wasn’t killed.
Sumatran tigresses are typically bred no earlier than 3 years of age. There may be a few isolated incidences of females breeding at 2 years (I’m not aware of any), but 18 months is unheard of.
The aim of a coordinated studbook is to maximise genetic diversity first and foremost. That’s why animals unrelated to the captive population are the highest ranking in the studbook. The personality of the animal is secondary to decisions made on pairings, and even then they would select for positive traits e.g. an easy going male over his aggressive or skittish male littermate. Why wouldn’t you? A male tiger that is docile is less likely to kill his mate; easier for staff to work with and makes a more engaging display animal as aggression is more commonly linked with insecurity.
The New York Times has picked it up as well.
This incident does remind of something that's be on my mind for a while: big cat introduction rooms need some sort of panic button. I was watching the National Zoo's teevee show a while back and they were introducing their tigers; staff were standing by for emergencies, but the things they had seemed so insubstantial.
My idea was to have a panic button installed attached to high powered fire-like hoses. Perhaps out of the ceiling like a rain shower. It might not be perfect, but it seems like a better option than what I witnessed.
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
I agree that maintaining diversity is the most important aim. That's actually a part of my point, not separate from it. Whether deliberately or not, zoos would naturally tend to breed from animals which are easier to breed from, thus applying a form of artificial selection to the captive population. As I understand it by having the studbook manager dictate matches this pressure is resisted (although not totally I'm sure).
In the current paradigm one of the key raisons-d'etre of zoos is to act is insurance populations in case a species becomes extinct in the wild, or close to it*. That is, after all, why ZSL holds Sumatran tigers not zoomix ones. Therefore one eye must be kept on the possibility of future reintroductions. It's hard to imagine anything more destructive to that aim than deliberately breeding aggresive traits out of an apex predator.
*Of course, one can argue that this is neither realistic nor desireable. I have some sympathy to that viewpoint even if it isn't my own. Nonetheless zoos tell the public they are 'arks' and so they must act like it.
As a Fellow of ZSL who has visited London Zoo many times over the years I think that the zoo needs to think long and hard about their tiger exhibit after this tragedy. They can’t just introduce another female to be a partner to Asim and try to forget about this event.
There must be a full enquiry into this incident, how and why it was allowed to happen and the findings should be published in full so lessons can be learnt. I do hope that some findings of this report could be released soon but this may be unlikely because as far as I’m aware there is still no further information reported about previous incidents such as the causes of the fire that swept through parts of the zoo in December 2017.
Regarding the tragic death of Melati several questions should be asked;
Why was the very successful pairing of Melati and Jae Jae broken up after nearly 6 years together? They had produced 7 cubs and Melati was now 10 years old. Yes, their offspring was over represented in the gene pool but would they have had many more cubs had they been left together?
Although Asim and Melati were well matched on paper this only referred to their ability to have cubs and not on their ability to actually get on. It was reported earlier in this thread that Asim was aggressive towards another female in a zoo which caused him to be moved on. Asim was probably also confused by his new surroundings and needed more time to settle in.
So why were they introduced directly to each other after only 10 days? Some sources I have read suggest introductions often take a lot longer than that. Were there really any positive signs that they were getting on through their respective sides of the enclosure? Were the staff perhaps under pressure to introduce the animals quickly so the exhibit could get ready for the busier half term period in just over a week’s time?
Although once the two animals were in conflict with each other it was probably very difficult to successfully separate them were the most effective procedures followed by the staff when the incident happened? Will Travers on Radio 4 suggested that the most effective way at separating tigers in this situation was a fire extinguisher. Was this tried?
The weather in London was not good on Friday morning. It was very windy and this may have added to the stress the tigers were under. Less stormy weather is due in the next few days, if they had to introduce the tigers so quickly why not wait a little longer?
I don’t doubt the expertise and dedication of the staff at London Zoo and they will be devastated by the loss of Melati but I believe these questions do need to be asked.
There must be a full enquiry into this incident, how and why it was allowed to happen and the findings should be published in full so lessons can be learnt. I do hope that some findings of this report could be released soon but this may be unlikely because as far as I’m aware there is still no further information reported about previous incidents such as the causes of the fire that swept through parts of the zoo in December 2017.
Regarding the tragic death of Melati several questions should be asked;
Why was the very successful pairing of Melati and Jae Jae broken up after nearly 6 years together? They had produced 7 cubs and Melati was now 10 years old. Yes, their offspring was over represented in the gene pool but would they have had many more cubs had they been left together?
Although Asim and Melati were well matched on paper this only referred to their ability to have cubs and not on their ability to actually get on. It was reported earlier in this thread that Asim was aggressive towards another female in a zoo which caused him to be moved on. Asim was probably also confused by his new surroundings and needed more time to settle in.
So why were they introduced directly to each other after only 10 days? Some sources I have read suggest introductions often take a lot longer than that. Were there really any positive signs that they were getting on through their respective sides of the enclosure? Were the staff perhaps under pressure to introduce the animals quickly so the exhibit could get ready for the busier half term period in just over a week’s time?
Although once the two animals were in conflict with each other it was probably very difficult to successfully separate them were the most effective procedures followed by the staff when the incident happened? Will Travers on Radio 4 suggested that the most effective way at separating tigers in this situation was a fire extinguisher. Was this tried?
The weather in London was not good on Friday morning. It was very windy and this may have added to the stress the tigers were under. Less stormy weather is due in the next few days, if they had to introduce the tigers so quickly why not wait a little longer?
I don’t doubt the expertise and dedication of the staff at London Zoo and they will be devastated by the loss of Melati but I believe these questions do need to be asked.