ZSL London Zoo Sumatran tiger Melati killed by Asim

[littleRedPanda]

If it's the Daily Mail, hopefully it is wrong!!

I couldn't resist and found they are simply repeating what has already been reported but referred to a report in the Times. I haven't registered to read it all, but wonder if they are jumping to conclusions because ZSL have stated that Asim will not be put down because of his value to the breeding program

Asim, the tiger that killed London Zoo’s Melati, to be found new mate

 

[Del250]

Interesting blog post here by Kathryn England on Melati’s passing and the details of what happened.

Thanks for posting this. It is a very interesting piece which gives some more detail of what happened and it was good of Kathryn to post it so quickly after this event.

As some others have said on this thread despite what the blog argues I still think that 10 days was too quick to introduce these two tigers.

There is also one sentence which does surprise me in the blog when it is said that, 'The surroundings were quiet and calm'. This is hard to believe if the tigers were introduced in the outside enclosure as Friday was a very windy day in London and there had been several weather warnings out for a few days beforehand of a risk of stormy weather for the whole UK. This may have made little difference to the behaviour of the tigers but it could have made them more wary and stressed as these animals are surely very senstive to changes in their environment. Much calmer weather is now in place and is forecast to last for the rest of this week - if the tigers had to be introduced so quickly why not wait just a few more days. Here is a link from the Guardian as a reminder of the poor weather around the UK last Friday and Saturday.
UK weather: three dead as gale-force winds batter country

 

[Pertinax]

Interesting blog post here by Kathryn England on Melati’s passing and the details of what happened.

Despite the further detail, I wasn't able to glean anything really new from this, outside of the facts that were initially reported, and whether Melati was in oestrus or not is still not mentioned either.

 

[Jambo]

I couldn't resist and found they are simply repeating what has already been reported but referred to a report in the Times. I haven't registered to read it all, but wonder if they are jumping to conclusions because ZSL have stated that Asim will not be put down because of his value to the breeding program

Asim, the tiger that killed London Zoo’s Melati, to be found new mate

Good grief! After being paired with two females unsuccessfully, one would think the right way to go, would be to retire Asim from breeding. If he is valuable to the breeding program, than why not train him for AI, without introduction to the female.

 

[Zoofan15]

Good grief! After being paired with two females unsuccessfully, one would think the right way to go, would be to retire Asim from breeding. If he is valuable to the breeding program, than why not train him for AI, without introduction to the female.

Exactly, or use a close male relative of greater or equal genetic value (father, uncle, brother, nephew etc). No Sumatran tiger can be that valuable (unless they're a founder/wild born) to warrant an introduction to a third female.

I think ZSL are better starting a fresh with a tiger from Australasia, paired with a tiger from Europe or the United States. The Australasian region has many surplus tigers that could be used for breeding; and their genes are obviously valuable due to Melati's high genetic ranking in the European breeding programme.

 

[littleRedPanda]

I wonder how blinkered we all are in own ways.

With regards to Kathryn England's post, something that has not been mentioned here is that "Asim started to retreat and we were poised to close the gate when Melati lashed back out at him." Am I the only one that's wondering if she had just restrained herself at that point, she might well be alive and we wouldn't be looking to point blame and guess alternative outcomes?

As for a new mate for Asim at London, the Mail have only cited the report from the Times, which I have not registered to read. But, the only quote I have seen from the zoo is that they hope to have a "breeding pair soon" .... they did not say a breeding partner for Asim.

 

[Jambo]

I wonder how blinkered we all are in own ways.

With regards to Kathryn England's post, something that has not been mentioned here is that "Asim started to retreat and we were poised to close the gate when Melati lashed back out at him." Am I the only one that's wondering if she had just restrained herself at that point, she might well be alive and we wouldn't be looking to point blame and guess alternative outcomes?

As for a new mate for Asim at London, the Mail have only cited the report from the Times, which I have not registered to read. But, the only quote I have seen from the zoo is that they hope to have a "breeding pair soon" .... they did not say a breeding partner for Asim.

I guess, in the situation both tigers felt threatened by one another. Hence, the first attack, by Asim, and the second, by Melati. Asim than felt threatened as Melati lashed out on him, fiercely protecting himself, giving her a wound that lead to her death.

It would’ve definitely been much better if she hadn’t attacked Asim after he attacked her the first time.

Though, I would think the fire hoses would only work on Lions since they are not much of a water dwelling creature compared to Tigers, which much prefer water?

 

[littleRedPanda]

Though, I would think the fire hoses would only work on Lions since they are not much of a water dwelling creature compared to Tigers, which much prefer water?

Just how high pressured would a hose have to be to really get a male tiger to back off if it feels that threatened.

I believe this is Melati and Jae Jae from "about 6 years ago?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=472699182785558

 

[Buldeo]

Though, I would think the fire hoses would only work on Lions since they are not much of a water dwelling creature compared to Tigers, which much prefer water?

Maybe. In my original thought on this subject, I was thinking water cannon; of the type used in riot/crowd control. You hit a tiger with enough force to rethink their footing and you'll have changed the dynamic wherever they're at, and with a range of ~60 meters and you have a bit more room to play with.

That fire hose usage in the Ukraine video amounted to basically flicking water at the lion.

 

[Jambo]

Just how high pressured would a hose have to be to really get a male tiger to back off if it feels that threatened.

I believe this is Melati and Jae Jae from "about 6 years ago?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=472699182785558

Maybe. In my original thought on this subject, I was thinking water cannon; of the type used in riot/crowd control. You hit a tiger with enough force to rethink their footing and you'll have changed the dynamic wherever they're at, and with a range of ~60 meters and you have a bit more room to play with.

That fire hose usage in the Ukraine video amounted to basically flicking water at the lion.

Yes. That is a fair point. When Taronga zoo, in Australia was introducing its previous pair, Satu and Jumila; there was one attempt of introduction between the pair where Satu attacked Jumila and had her by neck, almost suffocating her. The keepers quickly put the fire hoses to use and managed to seperate them, saving Jumila’s life. They were introduced again, quite a time later and finally produced 3 cubs after 2 years of introductions.

 

[Jambo]

Here is a video from YouTube that I found. It shows the introduction of a lion and a lioness at Adelaide zoo. The waterhose shortly comes into use at the 35 sceond mark of the video and both lions react to the water, retreating.

 

[Crowthorne]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Melati had a naturally feisty character, as opposed to Jae-Jae's more mellow nature.

 

[Zoofan15]

High pressure hoses are also used effectively (from quite a distance) on lions in this video:

Use of hose at 2.19 and again at 3.10.

 

[Zoofan15]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Melati had a naturally feisty character, as opposed to Jae-Jae's more mellow nature.

Yes, that’s what I’ve heard also. It seems the combination of a docile male and fiesty female works well. According to newspapers from the 1990s, Shiva and Selatan (Melati’s great aunt) at Taronga Zoo were much the same and a perfect match.

 

[Zia]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Melati had a naturally feisty character, as opposed to Jae-Jae's more mellow nature.

The first time we saw Melati was at the members opening of Tiger Territory - she was fronting up to Jae Jae and smacking him in the face repeatedly despite the fact he was about twice her size.

 

[Quincey]

The deaths of two tigers at UK zoos in the last week shows why a "centralised licensing" programme is needed, an animal charity has said.

Charity calls for zoo regulation reform

 

[FBBird]

The deaths of two tigers at UK zoos in the last week shows why a "centralised licensing" programme is needed, an animal charity has said.

Charity calls for zoo regulation reform

I do wish the antis would leave this alone. **** happens, end of.

 

[Jambo]

The first time we saw Melati was at the members opening of Tiger Territory - she was fronting up to Jae Jae and smacking him in the face repeatedly despite the fact he was about twice her size.

This would of most likely be the result of Melati’s dominant nature and Jae Jae’s more mellow, sub-dominant nature. This combination has been seen to be more successful in zoos.

In this news article: Rare tiger gets acquainted with new home at London Zoo, Tiger head keeper, Kathryn Sanders, states,"Asim is a handsome, confident cat who is known for being very affectionate with the ladies in his life.” Melati also, was known to have a fiesty, confident nature too. Maybe this lead her to attack Asim, letting him know that she didn’t want him to boss her around? She was the dominant cat when she was with Jae Jae...

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I do wish the antis would leave this alone. **** happens, end of.

I don't think this attitude is particularly helpful. When something goes wrong there are probably lessons to be learned. It doesn't mean mistakes were necessarily made, just that those questions should at least be asked (internally, by ZSL themselves).

 

[sooty mangabey]

I don't think this attitude is particularly helpful. When something goes wrong there are probably lessons to be learned. It doesn't mean mistakes were necessarily made, just that those questions should at least be asked (internally, by ZSL themselves).

...except that, in this case, and inevitably, those who believe that the captivity of animals is morally unjustifiable, will exploit what is, ultimately, almost certainly just an unfortunate accident, to further their own arguments. Which is something that makes me gnash my teeth!

And that Born Free (sic) are described as a "charity" rather than a "pressure group" may be factually accurate but distorts their intent, I feel.