Legalising Exotic Reptiles in Aust. (again)

[Ara]

It's a shame though - it means that the ISIS records are incomplete.

When it comes to large exotic pythons and boas, ISIS shows Burmese pythons only at Australia zoo and Mogo zoo; Blood pythons only at Adelaide, Melbourne and National zoo; Ball pythons only at Melbourne; Reticulateds at Mogo, Perth, Taronga, National and Australia zoos; Green Anacondas at Taronga and Adelaide zoos and Yellow Anaconda only at Australia zoo. I'll bet Aust. Reptile park has some of these too.

Here in Australia private ownership of exotic reptiles is not legal (although there are plenty of stories of illegal ownership.)
Surely it would be better to legalise and control private ownership of exotics rather than force the whole thing "underground?"

 

[boof]

, ; Green Anacondas at Taronga

really?? I wish they were on display.

 

[ZYBen]

When i was at bredl's on the weekend they have 4 yellow anacondas 2 retics 2 burmese and about 4 boas

 

[Hix]

ARP has a gigantic retic that will probably be fed a goat at the Xmas party I mentioned in the post above.

Here in Australia private ownership of exotic reptiles is not legal (although there are plenty of stories of illegal ownership.)
Surely it would be better to legalise and control private ownership of exotics rather than force the whole thing "underground?"

Absolutely not. They are banned for good reason, and legalising it will create serious threats to Australia's herpetofauna.



Hix

 

[Steve Robinson]

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Absolutely not. They are banned for good reason, and legalising it will create serious threats to Australia's herpetofauna.



Hix

I find it difficult to understand the logic behind this reasoning.

Illegally held exotic reptiles are out of control in Australia despite Federal and State amnesties. Banning them has not worked! Better to legalise and regulate their keeping so that some controls can be enforced. I am NOT advocating imports by private collectors - just licensing. Licensing will minimise "serious threats to Australia's herpetofauna".

Compare the reptile situation to the exotic bird scene. There are countless exotic bird species in this country - many of which are not subject to any controls whatsoever. There have been NO serious threats to Australia's avifauna as a result.

Food for thought!

 

[Hix]

Exotic reptiles are banned by the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Control Act, because exotic reptiles pose a threat to our wildlife from pest species possibly becoming established in the wild. Red-eared Sliders, a species causing enormous damage to environments in South East Asia, are already established in rivers in and around Sydney although their full impact has not yet been assessed. Corn Snakes are rumoured to also be established around the Sydney/Wollongong area.

Overseas Burmese Pythons, Boa Constrictors, Reticulated Pythons and Nile Monitors have established themselves in Florida, so much so that some species have been banned from different areas and Burmese Pythons are actively hunted by Sniffer Dogs in the Everglades where they are killing alligators.

Legalising reptiles in Australia will mean that exotic reptiles are more widespread. It's also well known in law enforcement circles that lagalising something will result in an increase illegal trade - just look at the elephant ivory situation. Exotic reptiles are still being smuggled into Australia, and these individuals may carry exotic diseases that could damage our native wildlife (OPMV and IBD were not present in Australia ten years ago).

YTou mentioned birds as a comparison - two points I'd like to mention:

1. Outbreaks of Newcastles Disease some years ago were linked to smuggled birds
2. Birds are not venomous (apart from the feathers of some New Guinea species) - cobras and rattlesnakes are currently being illegally held in NSW.



Hix

 

[Ara]

.....so if the people next door to you had a boa constrictor, wouldn't you rather that the authorities (NPWS or whoever) was aware of it; licensed the animal and carried out inspections of the snake, its security and its living conditions, rather than not be aware of it?

I believe a lot of illegal ownership is by reptile "desperates" who will keep snakes whether it is legal or not.

 

[Steve Robinson]

G'day Hix,

Your paragraphs #1 and #2 are spot on - no argument there.

Paragraph #3 - I don't accept, and can find no justification for, an argument that says that legalisation results in more illegal trade. Yes, we now have OPMV and IBD which may be here as a result of illegal trade. All the more reason to license the keeping of the exotic reptiles which are ALREADY HERE so that greater control over them can be exercised. By NOT licensing them they are not going to go away.

Re your bird points: #1 "linked" but never proven.

#2 "...cobras and rattlesnakes" certainly are being held illegally in Australia. All the more reason to license them and monitor where they are.

Regards,

Steve

 

[Steve Robinson]

Ara - a couple of years ago our QPWS rangers up here did an audit of all the licensed reptile keepers on the Downs. One of the rangers told me later ......" Steve, I've never seen so many people with tatts, pierced body parts, Johnny Rebbs and so on ...... and that was only the women!!!"

Reptile "desperates" all right!

 

[Hix]

.....so if the people next door to you had a boa constrictor, wouldn't you rather that the authorities (NPWS or whoever) was aware of it; licensed the animal and carried out inspections of the snake, its security and its living conditions, rather than not be aware of it?

I believe a lot of illegal ownership is by reptile "desperates" who will keep snakes whether it is legal or not.

I would rather the people next door to me had a native Australian snake like a Diamond Python. I would rather they held something legally, but if they have to do it illegally, then would still rather it was a native.

Secondly, it is currently believed that in NSW there may be the same number of unlicensed native reptiles than there kept on license. Introducing a licensing system will not guarantee people will get a license and we will have a situation where there are still large numbers kept illegally.

Steve: In the 1990's when the moratorium on elephant ivory was partially lifted so South Africa, Botswana and Zimbabwe only could sell their confiscated ivory, within a couple of weeks illegal ivory appeared in trade in South-East Asia. It disappeared when the moratorium was re-instituted. But we can agree to disagree on that point.

However, you agree OPMV and IBD may be here as a result of smuggling. In Sydney this year alone there have been three separate seizures of reptiles being smuggled in - legalising exotics will not stop people smuggling. At present, if you have an exotic, you are in breach of the law. Legalising it will make it so much harder to make a case.



Hix

 

[ZYBen]

I put it like this.

If a Macaw gets out Adelaide and one gets out in say, Mildura, they could meet, its only 300(ish) kms!

If a leopard Tortoise gets out Adelaide and one gets out in Mildura, he's going to be friggin lucky to see another leopard tortoise.

I have always been a fan of legalising Exotics reptiles in a manner of which the SA DEH specialist species permit is conducted, you apply for the species you want, send details of what exp you have with it, referees and details of where you want to keep it, inc. security measures. And they say yes or no after an inspection.

Theres will always be escapes but until a species gets below $100 a piece someone will be out there to catch that freebie!

 

[Coquinguy]

im all for legalising exotic reptiles in this country. im not talking about further imports for private collections, or reptiles being available in pet shops but rather a regulatory system whereby animals are not held 'underground' as they currently are.
as it is, there would be tens of thousands of illegally held reptiles around this country, posing a potential threat to eco-systems and human health. regulating this 'industry' would be a good idea.

 

[thorney_devil]

im all for legalising exotic reptiles in this country. im not talking about further imports for private collections, or reptiles being available in pet shops but rather a regulatory system whereby animals are not held 'underground' as they currently are.
as it is, there would be tens of thousands of illegally held reptiles around this country, posing a potential threat to eco-systems and human health. regulating this 'industry' would be a good idea.

Glyn is dead right. There are so many illegal reptiles and amphibians held within Australia, god only knows what your neighbours could be keeping... I remember a article in Australian Reptile magazine on this issue stating that over the past 5 years numerous exotic species have been picked up or found abandoned, dumped or breeding, this is were problems start.

Many of these keepers have little information and are paranoid about keeping them so rather risk getting caught which inflicts heavy penalties these animals are being dumped or passed on. Sydney hospitals have also come across an unusual number of exotic Snake bites with species such as King Cobra's, Diamondback Rattlesnakes, Eyelash Vipers & Puff Adders.

If a licencing or regulation change could occur this may prevent these incidents from occuring. Not only with Snakes but Iguana's, Chameleons, Tortoises & Caiman. Working within the pet industry I hear of several stories and am approached by several customers asking for assistance or products for thier exotics... It's pretty amazing what you can see or image from thier stories!

I back for a review of the laws and regulations against the keeping of these species 100%.

 

[Hix]

as it is, there would be tens of thousands of illegally held reptiles around this country, posing a potential threat to eco-systems and human health. regulating this 'industry' would be a good idea.

I agree there would be a large number of exotics held illegally, and they do pose a threat to ecosystems and human health.

How does regulating the industry reduce this risk?

If you legalise exotics, they will be even more widespread and the potential threat is much, much greater.

The threat to the Everglades I mentioned in a post above is from pythons obtained legally and then, when they got too big, were dumped -whereupon they grew much larger and started eating everything in sight.

I'm surprised that, with the wellknown threat posed by Cane Toads to the Australian fauna, anybody would want to encourage exotics.



Hix

 

[Coquinguy]

theyre already in this country Hix, as you'd be well aware.
i think that the government burying its head in the sand and not even recognising the widespread ownership of exotic reptiles in this country post moratorium is a grave oversight.
exotic reptiles really do pose a potential threat; maybe not a huge one but one that is worth recognising and regulating all the same. forcing the problem underground could actually end up creating problems with people dumping reptiles when they find them too hard to get rid of.
legalising exotic reptiles in this country should not be taken lightly; of course such a scheme has inherent risks. but at the end of the day, an eyelash viper in queensland is just as exotic as a woma. a pig-nosed turtle in tasmania just as exotic as a river cooter. the debate is not as clear cut as exotic vs native, and given that these animals do exist in this country in potentially viable situations and are likely to persist well into the future then i reckon government wildlife agencies would do well to actually know how many reptiles are out there, what species and where and devise some sort of national system that encourages responsible pet ownership and trust.
it also must be said. this is just a huge stereotype here, but so many people i know who have reptiles, native or otherwise, are hardly the most law-abiding citizens. im not so optimistic, or naive to think that if a national reptile scheme came into place tomorrow that every one of them would embrace it openly. but i think the right scheme devised by the right team of people could get support.
finally, whilst non-indigenous reptiles pose a threat in eco-systems around the world, so too do dogs and cats, particularly in Australia. even the aquaria industry i think poses a greater risk to our freshwater eco-systems in australia, and yet the 'legal' pet industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry with huge political clout.
overcoming the hysteria that surrounds exotic reptiles should be a priority. exotic reptiles are like dingers. everyone knows someone who has them or can get you some. the difference is that exotic reptiles should be legalised.

 

[pongogirl]

exotics as pets

Just to add to the mix.

The aspect that concerns me is that if keeping exotic reptiles was reviewed and the laws relaxed to allow selected/licensed people to keep these animals it may create a precedent for people wanting to keep exotic mammals or birds.
The thought of my neighbours having an exotic cat or primate fills me with a special dred has been experienced by some folks in the USA. Who can forget the stories of tigers living in New York apartments and their owner being seriously injured by them? But what isn't clearly documented is the whereabouts of animals like this after they were confiscated.
Therefore, the second part of my concern is where will these animals be housed in the event their owners are unable to care for them - be that reptile, mammal or bird?

 

[MARK]

Just to add to the mix.

The aspect that concerns me is that if keeping exotic reptiles was reviewed and the laws relaxed to allow selected/licensed people to keep these animals it may create a precedent for people wanting to keep exotic mammals or birds.
The thought of my neighbours having an exotic cat or primate fills me with a special dred has been experienced by some folks in the USA. Who can forget the stories of tigers living in New York apartments and their owner being seriously injured by them? But what isn't clearly documented is the whereabouts of animals like this after they were confiscated.
Therefore, the second part of my concern is where will these animals be housed in the event their owners are unable to care for them - be that reptile, mammal or bird?

Why have concerns about something that will never happen, the public in Aust will never be allowed to own exotic cats as they do in the USA, we even have a list in this country of banned dog breeds so the owning of Tigers, Lions and other exotics by the public will never happen, and should not happen.

 

[Hix]

i think that the government burying its head in the sand and not even recognising the widespread ownership of exotic reptiles in this country post moratorium is a grave oversight.

That's rubbish. The govt is well aware of the problem, but they don't want exotic reptiles in Australia, which is why they won't legalise them. That would be like rewarding criminal behaviour because it's simply too big a problem.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.



Hix

 

[Steve Robinson]

I agree there would be a large number of exotics held illegally, and they do pose a threat to ecosystems and human health.

How does regulating the industry reduce this risk?

If you legalise exotics, they will be even more widespread and the potential threat is much, much greater.

The threat to the Everglades I mentioned in a post above is from pythons obtained legally and then, when they got too big, were dumped -whereupon they grew much larger and started eating everything in sight.

I'm surprised that, with the wellknown threat posed by Cane Toads to the Australian fauna, anybody would want to encourage exotics.



Hix

G'day Hix,

Regulating the keeping of exotics reduces the risk significantly because the authorities would [should] then know where these damn things are. That is if the licensing is fair dinkum and not the revenue raising exercise that it is in some States at the moment. At the moment we have a defacto type of licensing anyhow with the reptiles declared under the various amnesties being recorded and subject to audit.

Licensing involves permanent identification so if a large boid turns up somewhere, a quick scan will soon identify it's erstwhile owner. My concept of licensing extends only to boids, iguanas, tortoises, turtles and, of course, corn snakes! I fail to see why anyone, other than zoos, should [or would want to] be allowed to keep exotic venomous reptiles. As a matter of fact I also have grave reservations about private people holding venomous indigenous snakes too - but that's another subject for another day.

Cane Toads? That's way off track. They're not out there because someone was keeping them as pets.

 

[Steve Robinson]

Just to add to the mix.

The aspect that concerns me is that if keeping exotic reptiles was reviewed and the laws relaxed to allow selected/licensed people to keep these animals it may create a precedent for people wanting to keep exotic mammals or birds.
The thought of my neighbours having an exotic cat or primate fills me with a special dred has been experienced by some folks in the USA. Who can forget the stories of tigers living in New York apartments and their owner being seriously injured by them? But what isn't clearly documented is the whereabouts of animals like this after they were confiscated.
Therefore, the second part of my concern is where will these animals be housed in the event their owners are unable to care for them - be that reptile, mammal or bird?

Hi pongogirl,

As MARK has said, licensing of exotic mammals to private owners ain't going to happen. No way, no how, not ever.

Exotic birds are already well and truly here and identification and licensing of those birds is well under way. Exotic reptiles could be regulated in pretty much the same way.

The second part of your concern is very relevant to this discussion. The EPBC Act very clearly defines the government's preferred action for the disposal of seized animals as - EUTHANASIA.

This subject was not even allowed to be discussed during the Fed's recent EBAG dialogue. Subsequently, some seized birds have ended up in some zoos but it is still a major concern to some of us that even CITES 1 birds could yet be euthanised.