Carnivores in mixed exhibits

[@animalmapping]

Ev

I didn’t see you offer any proof towards your statement that Cheetahs get enrichment from mixed exhibits with hoofstock, simply stating something does not make it true. There are a lot of ways to add enrichment in Cheetah exhibits, putting them or other species into potential danger isn’t one of them.

You clearly haven’t read through what has been said in this thread when you say no proof has been offered, as FunkyGibbon noted that when he viewed this mix he noted that a zookeeper was on hand to watch for aggression, not to mention there are many photos showing signs of aggression in this mix. Even you yourself noted that Cheetahs need “safe spaces” from Rhinos, which shows that even zoo exhibit designers aren’t confident in this mix.

So far, in this discussion you’ve denied obvious instances where this mix is detrimental, while offering no benefits for this mix beyond saying “it adds enrichment”, which is minimal at best.

everything is potential danger, probably putting a cheetah with another cheetah can be more dangerous than putting them with a rhino. Like I said cheetahs in nature have to focus on enemies all the time since about every predator will attack them, this is why they developed a very nervous behavior. In zoos were there are less dangerous cheetah will quickly stress out. before dogs were and are often put with cheetahs. But a species like a rhino can help the cheetahs way better since this is an actual natural behavior. If the cheetahs have a whole own space they actually choose to seek up the danger cause they like it just like humans like sometimes to do something exiting and maybe dangerous in their often boring lives.
There are no incidents that happened so the statement of danger is maybe a little bit exaggerated. The cheetahs again have an personal and save space and are way faster and way Agiler. Beside that white rhinos are really calm animals. Zoos like Leipzig zoo who belong to the most famous zoos of Europe won’t do this if it had positive effects. Rhinos will attack when in danger and a cheetah could never bring a rhino in danger. The rhino is as dangerous to a cheetah as it is to a zebra or wildebeest. And never heard any fuss about that combination here...

 

[TZDugong]

Ev

everything is potential danger, probably putting a cheetah with another cheetah can be more dangerous than putting them with a rhino. Like I said cheetahs in nature have to focus on enemies all the time since about every predator will attack them, this is why they developed a very nervous behavior. In zoos were there are less dangerous cheetah will quickly stress out. before dogs were and are often put with cheetahs. But a species like a rhino can help the cheetahs way better since this is an actual natural behavior. If the cheetahs have a whole own space they actually choose to seek up the danger cause they like it just like humans like sometimes to do something exiting and maybe dangerous in their often boring lives.
There are no incidents that happened so the statement of danger is maybe a little bit exaggerated. The cheetahs again have an personal and save space and are way faster and way Agiler. Beside that white rhinos are really calm animals. Zoos like Leipzig zoo who belong to the most famous zoos of Europe won’t do this if it had positive effects. Rhinos will attack when in danger and a cheetah could never bring a rhino in danger. The rhino is as dangerous to a cheetah as it is to a zebra or wildebeest. And never heard any fuss about that combination here...

Ummmm, in what way is a fellow Cheetah as dangerous as a 5,000 pound, sharp-horned, extremely territorial animal? And then, from what I can gather, you think that Rhinos and Cheetahs should be mixed because Cheetahs like danger, therefore providing enrichment. As I’ve mentioned, Cheetah enrichment can be provided without the risk of injury, and second of all, how enriching even is this? I’m not a Cheetah, but living in perpetual fear of an extremely large and territorial animal doesn’t seem very enriching to me. You then mention that this mix is safe because Cheetahs are “faster and more agile” than Rhinos, which is true but it fails to mention that a zoo exhibit is by definition an enclosed space, making it easy for one species to be trapped by another. Cheetahs can also only run for very short durations of time, and Rhinos are very fast and agile themselves. Finally, you mention that zoos mix Rhinos and hoofstock and that’s totally fine, but rarely (at least in North America) is that the case, and when it is, the species are in massive exhibits, why? Because Rhinos are extremely territorial and extremely dangerous, especially to a captive-born Cheetah.

 

[@animalmapping]

Ummmm, in what way is a fellow Cheetah as dangerous as a 5,000 pound, sharp-horned, extremely territorial animal? And then, from what I can gather, you think that Rhinos and Cheetahs should be mixed because Cheetahs like danger, therefore providing enrichment. As I’ve mentioned, Cheetah enrichment can be provided without the risk of injury, and second of all, how enriching even is this? I’m not a Cheetah, but living in perpetual fear of an extremely large and territorial animal doesn’t seem very enriching to me. You then mention that this mix is safe because Cheetahs are “faster and more agile” than Rhinos, which is true but it fails to mention that a zoo exhibit is by definition an enclosed space, making it easy for one species to be trapped by another. Cheetahs can also only run for very short durations of time, and Rhinos are very fast and agile themselves. Finally, you mention that zoos mix Rhinos and hoofstock and that’s totally fine, but rarely (at least in North America) is that the case, and when it is, the species are in massive exhibits, why? Because Rhinos are extremely territorial and extremely dangerous, especially to a captive-born Cheetah.

the negative points you point out here mostly have to do with the exhibit but an exhibit can be made suitable for this mix, like with no corners the cat can be driven in, multiple save zones like some pile of rocks or sticks or a tree the cheetah can sleep, rest or climb on when wanting to get away from the rhino and there can be made a whole free rhino exhibit so the cheetah can choose to come to the rhinos. This actually means they don’t live in big fear since if they would they won’t come to the rhinos. Beside that saw multiple photos of the cheetahs relaxing between the hoof stock and even heard some guests of these exhibits talk about that the cheetahs seemed relaxed. I think it’s the best to talk with some zookeepers or of zoos who actually bring these things in practice and ask them how it works and what they observed from the combination and what the positive, negative or neutral consequences are? I think that would be the best thing to do

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I didn’t see you offer any proof towards your statement that Cheetahs get enrichment from mixed exhibits with hoofstock, simply stating something does not make it true. There are a lot of ways to add enrichment in Cheetah exhibits, putting them or other species into potential danger isn’t one of them.

You clearly haven’t read through what has been said in this thread when you say no proof has been offered, as FunkyGibbon noted that when he viewed this mix he noted that a zookeeper was on hand to watch for aggression, not to mention there are many photos showing signs of aggression in this mix.

To be very clear, that's an assumption I made, not something I know.

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I think what is missing from this rather fractious debate is evidence. The central conundrum seems to be this: it seems inherently a bad idea (to most of us) to mix cheetahs with hoofstock (including rhinos) and yet some (not loads!) of very reputable zoos do this.

I'd like to see studies showing that cheetahs benefit from some non-zero level of stress (or the reverse). Similarly I'd like to see articles or reports of injuries or deaths to animals in these types of mixes.

Basel's new bull elephant enclosure has a cheetah door; they at least had some intent to trial that mix. Does anyone know if it ever happened?

Serious zoos are at least considering, and seemingly in some cases succeeding with these kinds of mixes. There is clearly a debate to be had here.

 

[@animalmapping]

To be very clear, that's an assumption I made, not something I know.

-------

I think what is missing from this rather fractious debate is evidence. The central conundrum seems to be this: it seems inherently a bad idea (to most of us) to mix cheetahs with hoofstock (including rhinos) and yet some (not loads!) Of very reputable zoos do this.

I'd like to see studies showing that cheetahs benefit from some non-zero level of stress (or the reverse). Similarly I'd like to see articles or reports of injuries or deaths to animals in these types of mixes.

Basel's new bull elephant enclosure has a cheetah door; they at least had some intent to trial that mix. Does anyone know if it ever happened?

Serious zoos are at least considering, and seemingly in some cases succeeding with these kinds of mixes. There is clearly a debate to be had here.

I saw there were no incidents recorded on zooerope.
I said it earlier if you guys want to get it more clear just call, email or check the site of some of the zoos who make this combination and ask them why they do it, what the positive, negative and neutral consequences are etc that would be way more useful.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I said it earlier if you guys want to get it more clear just call, email or check the site of some of the zoos who make this combination and ask them why they do it, what the positive, negative and neutral consequences are etc that would be way more useful.

Have you done this research yourself, or are you merely trying to pass the buck and avoid justifying your own stance on the matter by telling people to do your research for you?

 

[@animalmapping]

Have you done this research yourself, or are you merely trying to pass the buck and avoid justifying your own stance on the matter by telling people to do your research for you?

I haven’t actually been able to yet, but I have worked with big cats and rhinos in the wild and studied them so I (it’s sounds so weird to say) am kind of Ann expert :-(

 

[Chlidonias]

I think what is missing from this rather fractious debate is evidence. The central conundrum seems to be this: it seems inherently a bad idea (to most of us) to mix cheetahs with hoofstock (including rhinos) and yet some (not loads!) of very reputable zoos do this.

I don't have any problem with mixing White Rhinos and Cheetahs. The latter would very quickly learn to ignore the former I think, and it is a proven successful mix in a small number of zoos. However, Zebra and Cheetah is another matter entirely - Zebra are renowned for their uppity behaviour, almost no zoos do this mix, and of the few that do there are photos showing negative interactions between the species and measures have had to be included in the exhibits to make sure the Cheetahs are not injured (noted in one of my posts earlier).

Even worse - much worse actually - is the previously-mentioned Patas/Cheetah mix where it was known from the outset that the monkeys would be in danger and the zoo (a reputable zoo!) still went ahead and did it, and promptly discovered that it was not a good idea at all.

 

[@animalmapping]

I don't have any problem with mixing White Rhinos and Cheetahs. The latter would very quickly learn to ignore the former I think, and it is a proven successful mix in a small number of zoos. However, Zebra and Cheetah is another matter entirely - Zebra are renowned for their uppity behaviour, almost no zoos do this mix, and of the few that do there are photos showing negative interactions between the species and measures have had to be included in the exhibits to make sure the Cheetahs are not injured (noted in one of my posts earlier).

Even worse - much worse actually - is the previously-mentioned Patas/Cheetah mix where it was known from the outset that the monkeys would be in danger and the zoo (a reputable zoo!) still went ahead and did it, and promptly discovered that it was not a good idea at all.

Yeah it’s definitely total different I won’t directly say it’s a bad mix, but i will try contact some zoos doing this to ask why. But For me I was mainly defending the cheetah rhino combination. Zebra is a whole other story indeed.
Also I would never defend the patas monkey cheetah combination.

 

[TZDugong]

the negative points you point out here mostly have to do with the exhibit but an exhibit can be made suitable for this mix, like with no corners the cat can be driven in, multiple save zones like some pile of rocks or sticks or a tree the cheetah can sleep, rest or climb on when wanting to get away from the rhino and there can be made a whole free rhino exhibit so the cheetah can choose to come to the rhinos. This actually means they don’t live in big fear since if they would they won’t come to the rhinos. Beside that saw multiple photos of the cheetahs relaxing between the hoof stock and even heard some guests of these exhibits talk about that the cheetahs seemed relaxed. I think it’s the best to talk with some zookeepers or of zoos who actually bring these things in practice and ask them how it works and what they observed from the combination and what the positive, negative or neutral consequences are? I think that would be the best thing to do

I’m still very sceptical about this mix, but I think the idea you mentioned about a separate rhino-free zone is a good one, as they can get the enrichment from being around Rhinos, while also having the opportunity to be in their own exhibit. As for the zookeepers, I can also agree, they are the experts and I’m sure the zoos that exhibit Rhinos and Cheetahs have good reasons, but in my opinion it isn’t the greatest idea.

 

[FBBird]

I don't have any problem with mixing White Rhinos and Cheetahs. The latter would very quickly learn to ignore the former I think, and it is a proven successful mix in a small number of zoos. However, Zebra and Cheetah is another matter entirely - Zebra are renowned for their uppity behaviour, almost no zoos do this mix, and of the few that do there are photos showing negative interactions between the species and measures have had to be included in the exhibits to make sure the Cheetahs are not injured (noted in one of my posts earlier).

Even worse - much worse actually - is the previously-mentioned Patas/Cheetah mix where it was known from the outset that the monkeys would be in danger and the zoo (a reputable zoo!) still went ahead and did it, and promptly discovered that it was not a good idea at all.

I would agree on the Zebra thing, also Wildebeest, if the Black Wildebeest I know are anything to go by. I would agree that White Rhino are relatively benign, while Zebra and Wildebeest can be very nasty, even with each other.

 

[amur leopard]

multiple save zones like some pile of rocks or sticks or a tree the cheetah can sleep, rest or climb on when wanting to get away from the rhino

OK, so if the cheetahs want a rhino free area, give them separate enclosures!

Jk

 

[TinoPup]

Zoo Leipzig now has maned wolf and giant anteater in the same exhibit. It's been about a month and seems to be going very well.

 

[birdsandbats]

Dingo and Maned Wolf are mixed at Toledo.

 

[vogelcommando]

Last weekend I was at the Paris Zoological Park and here at least 2 Bush dogs share their enclosure with a small group of Ring-tailed coatis ! Bush dogs have the reputation to attact everything smaller or of equal size as they are themself and even prey which is bigger as themself so I was quite surprised to see this combination !

 

[pipaluk]

Last weekend I was at the Paris Zoological Park and here at least 2 Bush dogs share their enclosure with a small group of Ring-tailed coatis ! Bush dogs have the reputation to attact everything smaller or of equal size as they are themself and even prey which is bigger as themself so I was quite surprised to see this combination !

This was tried at Twycross, but failed, as didn't last long

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Dingo and Maned Wolf are mixed at Toledo.

If it isn't a temporary situation it seems like a very bad mix of different canid species to me. Maned wolves are such nervous and avoidant animals whereas dingos (though I dont know very much about them) strike me as being much aggressive.

 

[Gondwana]

If it isn't a temporary situation it seems like a very bad mix of different canid species to me. Maned wolves are such nervous and avoidant animals whereas dingos (though I dont know very much about them) strike me as being much aggressive.

Pretty sure these are not on exhibit together, they alternate time in the same exhibit yard.

 

[birdsandbats]

Pretty sure these are not on exhibit together, they alternate time in the same exhibit yard.

I saw them both in the exhibit at once.

 

[Luke da Zoo nerd]

I saw them both in the exhibit at once.

Interesting, I always have seen the dingoes and the maned wolf alternate in their exhibits.