ZooChat Cup Group D: Beauval vs Frankfurt

[CGSwans]

Beauval. Frankfurt. Carnivores.

The rules:

• You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner.
• Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting.
• All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.

Paging @FunkyGibbon , @migdog , @Chlidonias , @SabineB , @Maguari , @Tim May

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I've only visited Frankfurt, but given the fact Beauval has the better collection and - from photographs i've seen - better exhibits for big cats at least, I think it goes 2-1 to the latter for now.

 

[Vision]

Interesting match-up! I've visited both, and I like both a lot, but I think Frankfurt deserves this win by far. I don't think any of the big cat, hyena and bear exhibits at Beauval are very good at all... The outdoor exhibits are in most cases mundane and visible from most angles, and particularly the indoor enclosures are absolutely tiny and hardly offer any privacy. The enclosures for smaller carnivores like otters, coatis, meerkats etc. are all average but don't stand out and aren't excellent by any means - the same can be said about the sea lion tank. Enclosures that I did thoroughly like in Beauval were that of the cheetahs, which got a really nice and open field, and the recent developments in the Asian area (giant panda, red panda, fishing cat).

I definitely think Frankfurt's tiger and lion enclosures are much better than those of Beauval, and I think the complex around the entrance with the spectacled bears and bush dogs is a lot better than anything Beauval has to offer. The fur seals in Frankfurt also definitely have one of the better enclosures for pinnipeds in Europe.

I'm voting 2-1 for Frankfurt for now.

 

[lintworm]

@Vision Is that including Beauvals new lion enclosure?

 

[Vision]

@Vision Is that including Beauvals new lion enclosure?

Oh indeed, you're right, I must have been looking at an old version of the map when posting this yesterday... The new lion enclosure is indeed definitely a lot better than Frankfurt's, and perhaps one of the better I've seen (though it does use a lot of mock rock). I'm going to keep my vote unchanged for now, but I'll spend some more time thinking and reconsidering.

 

[Chlidonias]

I've been to Frankfurt - but it was fifteen years ago and honestly I don't remember too much. I have a photo of a Yellow Mongoose, and it was the first (I think still only) place I saw Fossa. More importantly, it was also the first place I saw a European Robin which was in the Fossa cage.

The poll is fairly even at the moment between 2-1 to Frankfurt and 2-1 for Beauval. I'm going 2-1 for Frankfurt.

 

[amur leopard]

I think that we have to take into account the new Arctic wolf, European brown bear, Cheetah, African lion, Painted wolf and Meerkat enclosures. There is also the Giant Panda enclosure to take into account. Adding this to the sheer number of species they have ( I am adding lists at the bottom), for me leads to a straightforward win in Beauval's favour.

Species highlighted in red have what I deem a top 10 zoo standard enclosure.

Beauval's carnivores (24) :

Painted wolf
Meerkat
European brown bear
Giant panda
Fishing cat
Clouded leopard
Jaguar
California sea lion
Lion (and its white form)
Raccoon
Persian leopard
Puma
South American coati
Snow leopard
Serval
Bat eared fox
Cheetah
Sumatran tiger
Spotted hyena
Red panda
Yellow mongoose
Asian small-clawed otter
Grey wolf

Frankfurt carnivores (17):

Painted wolf
Asiatic lion
Spectacled bear
Binturong
Fossa
Meerkat
Harbour seal
Rusty spotted cat
Yellow mongoose
South African fur seal
Sumatran tiger
Fennec fox
Bush dog
Raccoon
Asian small-clawed otter
South American coati
European red fox

To me it is a no-brainer. Beauval are way advanced compared to Frankfurt, who are still having to deal with their horrendous primate enclosures. Granted, some of Beauval's enclosures are simple, but they house the cats acceptably. Meanwhile, Beauval is busy making new enclosures for its carnivores. So no, whilst Frankfurt is still trying to get its yellow tiles and frankly (no pun intended ) appalling conditions sorted in the primate house, Beauval is building world-class exhibits for their wide range of carnivores, including all the big cats (except Sunda clouded leopard) and giant pandas. For me, not even a second thought. Beauval 3-0.

I will be extremely disappointed if Beauval ends up losing this.

 

[amur leopard]

I don't think any of the big cat, hyena and bear exhibits at Beauval are very good at all...

Right. The brown bears have been moved to a world-class enclosure with Arctic wolves, new enclosures have been built for lions and cheetahs and the pumas now have more space. So point not necessarily true.

Furthermore, the Frankfurt enclosures aren't all that good. The lion and tiger indoor enclosures are sub-standard, just like their primate house, which looks like a slum.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Beauval are way advanced compared to Frankfurt, who are still having to deal with their horrendous primate enclosures.

So no, whilst Frankfurt is still trying to get its yellow tiles and frankly (no pun intended) appalling conditions sorted in the primate house,

just like their primate house, which looks like a slum.

Except you are specifically not meant to take aspects outside the current category into consideration so your point is irrelevant.

 

[amur leopard]

Except you are specifically not meant to take aspects outside the current category into consideration so your point is irrelevant.

True, but it does affect the situation, doesn't it? If the primate enclosures are sub-standard, they have to spend money on them, so money that might otherwise be going to the upkeep and improvement of the carnivore enclosures is instead spent on the primates. So yes and no.

Going to bed now so chat with yall tomorrow!

zzzzz

 

[TZDugong]

True, but it does affect the situation, doesn't it? If the primate enclosures are sub-standard, they have to spend money on them, so money that might otherwise be going to the upkeep and improvement of the carnivore enclosures is instead spent on the primates. So yes and no.

So you’re blaming a zoo for fixing up some of their worst enclosures? I’m sorry but I’m really not understanding your logic here. From the photos I’ve seen and what I’ve read on this site, Frankfurt’s carnivore enclosures are pretty good, while their primate house is pretty bad. Focusing on improving a zoos weakest enclosures is a very good thing, so taking points off of Frankfurt’s carnivores because they’re doing a good job trying to fix up a bad primate section is not very good reasoning.

 

[lintworm]

To me it is a no-brainer. Beauval are way advanced compared to Frankfurt, who are still having to deal with their horrendous primate enclosures. Granted, some of Beauval's enclosures are simple, but they house the cats acceptably. Meanwhile, Beauval is busy making new enclosures for its carnivores. So no, whilst Frankfurt is still trying to get its yellow tiles and frankly (no pun intended ) appalling conditions sorted in the primate house, Beauval is building world-class exhibits for their wide range of carnivores, including all the big cats (except Sunda clouded leopard) and giant pandas. For me, not even a second thought. Beauval 3-0.

Except that the state of the primate enclosures is of 0 concern and that though ugly most primate enclosures are still pretty good. It is also not true they are not investing in carnivore enclosures. The next project is extending the Lion outdoor enclosure, by removing the water moat.

I will come with an overview of the carnivore enclosures in my 2nd home zoo tomorrow...

 

[Chlidonias]

what I deem a top 10 zoo standard enclosure.

What does this mean? Which words relate to which other words in the sentence?

If the enclosures are standard then how can they be "top ten"? And what does "top ten" refer to? In the world; in Europe; in this particular zoo?

I struggle to believe that almost half of Beauval's carnivore species are in "top ten" enclosures.

 

[Vision]

The lion and tiger indoor enclosures are sub-standard.

Until you said this, I actually was giving a large part of your post credit - I didn't know that the situation for bears and wolves had approved this much, and that's very good to hear. I don't necessarily agree with a large portion of the species, but it is an interesting comparison. (surely meerkats in Frankfurt have it better than those in Beauval?)

However, is criticizing Frankfurt's indoor enclosures, which are spacious, and in case of the tigers even have mulch on the ground and live plants in the indoor enclosure, really fair? Unless a lot has changed since my visit, the average big cat indoor enclosure at Beauval still looks like this, no?

White Tiger Enclosure at Beauval, 12/06/18 - ZooChat

Puma at Beauval, 12/06/18 - ZooChat

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Going to bed now so chat with yall tomorrow!

zzzzz

I'll be honest, this reads to me like "I can't be bothered to defend my rulebreaking further"

 

[CGSwans]

To me it is a no-brainer. Beauval are way advanced compared to Frankfurt, who are still having to deal with their horrendous primate enclosures.

First of all, most of your post is great - exactly the kind of contribution I hope the ZooChat Cup will encourage, and thank-you for posting it.

I do need to remind people, though, of the importance of sticking strictly within the category of species/exhibits that is under discussion. The rules of this game are flexible by design - the implicit purpose is to provoke debate about what defines a 'better' zoo or collection. But this one rule - sticking to the category - is absolutely essential and really the only one that I insist on. It's what prevents this whole game from becoming a very long and indirect way of asking people what their favourite zoo is.

Frankfurt's primate enclosures, good or bad, are outside the scope of this match.

 

[amur leopard]

So you’re blaming a zoo for fixing up some of their worst enclosures? I’m sorry but I’m really not understanding your logic here. From the photos I’ve seen and what I’ve read on this site, Frankfurt’s carnivore enclosures are pretty good, while their primate house is pretty bad. Focusing on improving a zoos weakest enclosures is a very good thing, so taking points off of Frankfurt’s carnivores because they’re doing a good job trying to fix up a bad primate section is not very good reasoning.

Yes, ok. I will stop the primate argument. You are right.

Except that the state of the primate enclosures is of 0 concern and that though ugly most primate enclosures are still pretty good. It is also not true they are not investing in carnivore enclosures. The next project is extending the Lion outdoor enclosure, by removing the water moat.

I will come with an overview of the carnivore enclosures in my 2nd home zoo tomorrow...

Ok can we also look at the other side of this. I think that Beauval are doing a great job of renovating their big cat enclosures WHILST building a giant Equatorial dome which will house more carnivores in a state-of-the-art exhibits such as Asian small-clawed and giant otters.
So there are yet more great carnivore exhibits coming to Beauval.

What does this mean? Which words relate to which other words in the sentence?

If the enclosures are standard then how can they be "top ten"? And what does "top ten" refer to? In the world; in Europe; in this particular zoo?

I struggle to believe that almost half of Beauval's carnivore species are in "top ten" enclosures.

OK what I meant by this was that the enclosures were of the standard of a top 10 zoo in the world. And yes, they are, because almost half of them have had their enclosures recently rebuilt.

Until you said this, I actually was giving a large part of your post credit - I didn't know that the situation for bears and wolves had approved this much, and that's very good to hear. I don't necessarily agree with a large portion of the species, but it is an interesting comparison. (surely meerkats in Frankfurt have it better than those in Beauval?)

However, is criticizing Frankfurt's indoor enclosures, which are spacious, and in case of the tigers even have mulch on the ground and live plants in the indoor enclosure, really fair? Unless a lot has changed since my visit, the average big cat indoor enclosure at Beauval still looks like this, no?

White Tiger Enclosure at Beauval, 12/06/18 - ZooChat

Puma at Beauval, 12/06/18 - ZooChat

OK, yes when we are talking indoor enclosures, Frankfurt does win, they are very good. However, in terms of outdoor enclosures, Beauval's lion enclosure is one of the best in the world no jokes. Off the top of my head I really can't think of many that surpass it or even draw with it. In terms of tigers, I haven't been able to find one recent photo that actually shows the tiger outdoor enclosure on the whole of the internet, so....

I would still like to defend Beauval's cat enclosures. Ok, the indoor enclosures aren't great, but the outdoor enclosures are of a much better standard and definitely rival Frankfurt's lion enclosure. @Vision's point about being able to see it from almost all sides is only necessarily correct if there is nowhere for them to hide (i.e. no vegetation, no rocks, no pools) which is not the case. In fact, there is more vegetation in Beauval's cat enclosures than Frankfurt's lion enclosure. They all have pools to cool down, they all have a good amount of space.

I'll be honest, this reads to me like "I can't be bothered to defend my rulebreaking further"

The funny thing is, you're actually all debating with a kid. And believe it or not, a kid does actually have to go to bed when his parents tell them to, no matter how important Zoochat is.

Secondly, can I just point out that, ok, I was wrong to talk about the primates, thank you @CGSwans for clarifying that, but you are not targeting the actual content of my post either because you can't argue with it or you haven't got onto it yet, so...

 

[migdog]

Based on the newer exhibits at Beaval (Lions, wolves etc) this puts them way ahead of Frankfurt. Plus the fact the Giant panda exhibit is awesome I'm changing my vote to Beauval clean sweep! Frankfurt is a fantastic zoo based on its collection but didn't think the lion exhibit (outdoors) is that great and the tiger exhibit looks more natural but I would say Beauvals is bigger.

 

[Chlidonias]

The funny thing is, you're actually all debating with a kid.

Pretty sure everybody was well aware you are a kid.

 

[Maguari]

Only visited Frankfurt once 10 years ago but I remember the carnivore housing as generally fine but nothing special (cat/fossa house was quite nice).

Beauval I've also only visited once but just last year and most of the carnivore enclosures were very nice (there are still a few odd old ones in the central area of the zoo but what would have been by some way the worst of them, for brown bears, had just been decommissioned and a large new one built on a new expansion.

Because my Frankfurt experience is out of date, I haven't seen the new bear area there and I don't remember anything specifically bad for carnivores at Frankfurt I'm leaning towards 2-1 Beauval at the moment.