ZooChat Cup Group F: Leipzig vs Zurich

[CGSwans]

The topic? Ectotherms.

The rules:

• You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner.
• Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting.
• All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.

Tags - will figure that out tomorrow. It’s been a long day.

 

[antonmuster]

Cannot comment on Leipzig, but this is one of Zurich's strong suits - if focusing on quality over quantity - as they have extremely high-quality, at times standard-setting, enclosures for their ectotherms - though their collection certainly isn't the largest.

Exotarium
Good to very good terraria of all sizes which are holding up extremely well considering the fact that this section is >30 years old. Notable elements: comparatively large dendrobate collection, beautifully presented; huge reticulate python; daily keeper presentations.


Exotarium Aquarium
Newly renovated. Stunning aesthetics and lighting. Electric eel. Mangrove mudskipper and archerfish paludarium with simulated tides. Two beautiful large reef aquaria.


Galapagos Tortoises
Only successful breeding group of Galapagos Tortoises in Europe. Charming indoor housing with excellent educational theming on the topic of evolution, large outdoor yard. Unfortunately, often overlooked.


Australia
Two excellent terraria for shingleback and pilbara monitor. Two very large beautifully landscaped indoor and one large decent outdoor enclosure for perentie.

 

[antonmuster]

Pantanal
Has European pond turtles in its ponds.

Insect Hotel
There is an inconspicuous insect hotel in the South American camelids section.

Eurasian sweet water fish
...such as sturgeon, are housed in an outdoor freshwater aquarium directly opposite the eurasian river otters.

Elephant park
Contains enclosures for Madagascan hissing cockroaches, scorpion, and black-breasted leaf-turtle. While the enclosures aren't inadequate for the inhabitants, they are implemented as 'less than an afterthought' and rather disappointing. The indoor elephant pool now contains unspecified fish. Overall, underwhelming - especially considering the potential for free-roaming reptiles (and perhaps even amphibians).

Masoala
This has been called the best chameleon enclosure in the world. And it probably is. This is where not just chameleons, but even little brown Madagascar girdled lizards occasionally draw crowds and little green geckos make toddlers scream in delight. The line-up isn't overly impressive: Panther chameleon, giant day gecko, leaf tail gecko, aldabra giant tortoise, tomato frog, and a few more. The presentation however is. The majority of plant species originate from Masoala (in fact from special tree nurseries in the Masoala hall and in Madagascar which the zoo has funded and which are also used for reforestation), as do the ectotherm inhabitants (save the giant tortoises). Hence you can observe the animals in as close an aproximation of their natural habitat, as one could wish for. For example, an excellent place to spot the giant day geckos is in the Ravenala traveller's trees, same as (apparently) in the wild. In addition to the hall, the adjacent 'museum' includes two beautiful large terraria and an equally accomplished reef aquarium. Arguably, Masoala alone makes Zurich a contestant against any other zoo in the display of ectotherms.


Lewa
Afaik no (!) ectotherm species are planned for the Lewa project, expected to open next Easter. Considering the size and expenses of the project, I find this rather disappointing.

Conclusion
Zurich house and exhibit their ectotherms in excellent exhibits second to none ranging from 'classical' vivarium and aquarium design, to large outdoor enclosures, to reinventing the genre with Masoala. The collection is medium sized, with a good balance, and several attractive rarities. According to their own annual report, they house 44 reptile species, 15 amphibians, 87 fish, and 67 invertebrate species. Arguably, the zoo could give ectotherms more attention (and exhibits in new developments) - though as I have said, what they do, they do mostly extremely well. The only thing truly 'missing' is a large oceanarium-type aquarium.

 

[lintworm]

Leipzig is very unlucky that currently their Aquarium & Terrarium building is closed and undergoing renovations.Especially the fish collection in Leipzig is/was far ahead of Zurich, though the tanks that Zurich has are of a very high quality.

Apart from the temporarily closed aquarium & terrarium, the majority of ectotherms on display is housed in Gondwanaland, the 1.6 hectare rainforest. I am not sure which animals are free-ranging currently, but I know there are free-ranging Staurois (splash frogs). There are good enclosures for Tomistoma, shared with several tortoise species, and Komodo dragon as well as the standard set of big S-American fish (Arapaima etc.) + Arrau turtles. The entrance cave to Gondwanaland has several tanks with "prehistoric animals" like Lungfish, Alligator gar and Horseshoe crab.

If the Aquarium building would have been open in Leipzig, I would have voted for them, but at a current visit, Zurich is the better of the two imo.

 

[antonmuster]

Leipzig is very unlucky that currently their Aquarium & Terrarium building is closed and undergoing renovations.

So do/should these count - or not?

 

[lintworm]

So do/should these count - or not?

I guess that is up to you. I am not counting it as the competition focuses on the now.

 

[antonmuster]

...regarding ectotherm-related in situ conservation, Zurich cooperate with and support the amphibian survival project in Colombia, have complex projects with Masoala, and also support the Charles Darwin research station in the Galapagos. The in situ projects with Kaeng Krachan, Pan Eco in Aceh, and Lewa indirectly also benefit ectotherms. Also, with the keeper talks, and anti-arachnophobia courses, the zoo is doing terrific ground work in raising people's appreciation of these animals. Their educational exhibit on the chytrid threat on amphibians in the exotarium. With the aquarium and terrarium in Leipzig under renovation I'm trending towards 3-0, but would love to hear arguments pro Leipzig and direct comparisons from visitors to both collections first.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I think the thing that really pushed me towards Zurich is that I found Masoala to be far, far superior to Gondwanaland, both as exhibits on their own terms, and in terms of actually finding and viewing reptiles inside them.

 

[amur leopard]

So do/should these count - or not?

I haven't been to Zurich (even though I was on the verge of moving there at one point), but I must say Gondwanaland should not be underestimated and neither should be the aquarium and terrariums. I think they should be included, because they are part of the zoo and they still have these animals in their collection. It is perhaps not fair to judge them by their new terrariums, but certainly by their old ones.

 

[lintworm]

I haven't been to Zurich (even though I was on the verge of moving there at one point), but I must say Gondwanaland should not be underestimated and neither should be the aquarium and terrariums. I think they should be included, because they are part of the zoo and they still have these animals in their collection. It is perhaps not fair to judge them by their new terrariums, but certainly by their old ones.

Gondwanaland does however pale with Masoala in terms of getting the rainforest feeling and finding Leaf-tailed geckoes in Zurich is one of the best challenges a zoo can offer.

It should be noted that quite some animals have (temporarily) left Leipzig since the start of the renovation.

 

[amur leopard]

I think the thing that really pushed me towards Zurich is that I found Masoala to be far, far superior to Gondwanaland, both as exhibit on their own terms, and in terms of actually finding and viewing reptiles in side them.

Tis true, tis true...
I would still say that the terrariums hold many species and so does the aquariums, and if we were to include them, that would give them the edge. I am posting the lists below:

Leipzig:

Alligator snapping turtle (Macrochelys temminckii)
American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis)
Arizona black rattlesnake (Crotalus Cerberus)
Armadillo lizard (Ouroborus cataphractus)
Arrau river turtle (Podocnemis expansa)
Baja California rock lizard (Petrosaurus thalassinus)
Black-breasted leaf turtle (Geoemyda spengleri)
Blue spiny lizard (Sceloporus cyanogenys)
Broad-banded copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix laticinctus )
Caiman lizard (Dracaena guianensis)
Chinese crocodile lizard (Shinisaurus crocodilurus)
Chinese stripe-necked turtle (Mauremys sinensis)
Chinese water dragon (Physignathus cocincinus)
Common blue-tongued skink (Tiliqua scincoides)
Common chuckwalla (Sauromalus ater)
Common green iguana (Iguana iguana)
Common snake-necked turtle (Chelodina longicollis)
Corn snake (Pantherophis guttatus)
Cuban brown anole (Anolis sagrei)
Cuvier's dwarf caiman (Paleosuchus palpebrosus)
Dwarf crocodile (Osteolaemus tetraspis tetraspis)
Eyespot gecko (Gonatodes ocellatus)
False gharial (Tomistoma) (Tomistoma schlegelii)
Fiji banded iguana (Brachylophus fasciatus)
Flat-tailed gecko (Hemidactylus platyurus)
Frill-necked lizard (Chlamydosaurus kingii)
Garden tree boa (Corallus hortulanus)
Gila monster (Heloderma suspectum)
Greater Madagascar day gecko (Phelsuma grandis)
Green basilisk (Basiliscus plumifrons)
Green bush ratsnake (Green trinket snake))
Green tree python (Morelia viridis)
Haitian giant galliwasp (Celestus warren)
Horned adder (Bitis caudalis)
King ratsnake (Elaphe carinata)
Komodo dragon (Komodo monitor) (Varanus komodoensis)
Malaysian giant pond turtle (Orlitia borneensis)
Malaysian painted river turtle (Batagur borneoensis )
Mangrove snake (Boiga dendrophila dendrophila)
McCord's snake-necked turtle (Chelodina mccordi)
Mississippi map turtle (Graptemys pseudogeographica kohnii)
Mourning gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris)
Nicaraguan slider (Trachemys emolli)
Pancake tortoise (Malacochersus tornieri)
Panther chameleon (Furcifer pardalis)
Peach-throated monitor (Varanus jobiensis)
Pig-nosed turtle (Carettochelys insculpta)
Puff adder (Bitis arietans)
Radiated tortoise (Astrochelys radiata )
Ring-necked spitting cobra (Hemachatus haemachatus)
Royal python (Python regius)
Sinaloan milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae)
Southern Brown tortoise (Manouria emys emys)
Spiny softshelled turtle (Apalone spinifera )
Spotted pond turtle (Geoclemys hamiltonii)
Texas gopher tortoise (Gopherus berlandieri)
Tokay gecko (Gekko gecko)
West African rainbow lizard (Agama Africana)
Western hingeback tortoise (Kinixys belliana nogueyi)
William's electric blue gecko (Lygodactylus williamsi)
Yellow anaconda (Eunectes notaeus)
Yellow-headed day gecko (Phelsuma klemmeri)
Yellow-spotted Amazon river turtle (Podocnemis unifilis)

63 Reptile species

There are also 205 fish species which I can't be bothered to write out and 22 Amphibian species.

Zurich:

They have 37 reptile species, 72 fish species and 11 Amphibian species.


So, Leipzig have 1.7 times more reptile species, 2.85 times more fish species and twice as many amphibian species.
Interpret this data as you wish

 

[antonmuster]

So, Leipzig have 1.7 times more reptile species, 2.85 times more fish species and twice as many amphibian species.

...but following this line of argumentation, Zurich would have been the 'better' zoo (all other things remaining equal) with its aquarium before renovation, than it is now with the renovated aquarium. Because the former aquarium at Zurich certainly was much more 'specious' (including e.g. arapaima etc.). I wager that anyone who has seen Zurich's aquarium before and after the renovation will agree that such a conclusion is nonsense. Quality-wise there was nothing wrong with the old aquarium - but the renovated one simply eclipses its former self in the design department. Moreover, assuming that Leipzig will also reduce species numbers in favor of improved presentation, Leipzig would also be the poorer zoo after the renovation of their aquarium.

On a side note: You are underreporting the species numbers for Zurich (see my previous post). Furthermore, how many of Leipzig's additional species are actually fairly common 'pet-shop' species. Zurich seem to focus their collection on a) excellent presentation and/or b) rarities with considerably ex situ or in situ conservation value. How do the two zoos compare in this department? I can see how snapping turtles or false gharials in Leipzig's collection would put them ahead, but then Zurich has two species of giant tortoises while Leipzig has none and they are breeding. Again, I have no clue how a more 'qualitative' comparison of the two zoos' collections would carry out, but would find this comparison interesting.

Overall, the numbers argument is actually pushing me more towards Zurich, because doing otherwise would imply that funds e.g. for Masoala would have been better put to use in a modern rendition of the exotarium with hundreds of species. That would also be something wonderful, but I most certainly prefer what they actually did. Arguably, it is precisely this reflex towards exhibiting more species, which compromises the overall accomplishment of Gondwanaland in comparison to Masoala, as has been reported by countless visitors to both collections.

I would still say that the terrariums hold many species and so does the aquariums, and if we were to include them, that would give them the edge.

I can see that argument. Particularly it seems strange to 'penalize' the zoo for ongoing improvement. But then if taken into account at face value, this would open up a problematic line of argument in other contests, because e.g. Zurich's Lewa 'savanna' is nearing completion and animals are starting to arrive behind the scenes. But because the development is not yet open, it would be very difficult to gauge its quality (aside from the fact that it looks fairly promising).

 

[amur leopard]

I can see that argument. Particularly it seems strange to 'penalize' the zoo for ongoing improvement. But then if taken into account at face value, this would open up a problematic line of argument in other contests, because e.g. Zurich's Lewa 'savanna' is nearing completion and animals are starting to arrive behind the scenes. But because the development is not yet open, it would be very difficult to gauge its quality (aside from the fact that it looks fairly promising).

I mean, the aquarium and terrariums existed before and they will be put back on-show when they are finished. However, the same thing cannot be said for the Zurich savanna, which is new animals and some old ones.

 

[antonmuster]

Having thought about this, I am moving my vote to 3-0 with the following rationale:

Even if I am taking Leipzig's terrarium/aquarium into account (which apparently I shouldn't) and grant a tie with its Zurich counterpart, the exotarium, this still leaves Masoala pitted against Gondwanaland -- and Australia, and the Galapagos house and exterior, and other small bits and pieces scattered around Zurich zoo, where all of the latter apparently have no counterpart at Leipzig where ectotherms apparently are restricted exclusively to the aquarium/terrarium and Gondwanaland. From the arguments presented here and in other threads, I expect Masoala - for me - would clearly outshine Gondwanaland upon a visit to the latter (in the category ectotherms... but also others). Add to this Australia, Galapagos, and the other small bits and pieces at Zurich, and the lack of corresponding counterparts at Leipzig, and I don't think this is a tight match by any measure (which would correspond to 2-1 according to the match rules), but a victory by at least a 'wider margin' for Zurich, which corresponds to a 3-0 score.

On a sidenote: Looking at pictures of the old aquarium/terrarium of Leipzig from their homepage, I suspect I would prefer Zurich's exotarium, as it seems considerably more accomplished, design-wise (see virtual 360 Leipzig tour link below for comparison).
Zoo Leipzig - 360grad-tour

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I am going to vote 2-1 in favor of Zurich due to the above arguments, but I do still wants to give some credit to their aquarium/terrarium.

~Thylo

 

[amur leopard]

Even if I am taking Leipzig's terrarium/aquarium into account (which apparently I shouldn't) and grant a tie with its Zurich counterpart, the exotarium, this still leaves Masoala pitted against Gondwanaland -- and Australia, and the Galapagos house and exterior, and other small bits and pieces scattered around Zurich zoo, where all of the latter apparently have no counterpart at Leipzig where ectotherms apparently are restricted exclusively to the aquarium/terrarium and Gondwanaland.

That is not taking into account Leipzig's destruction of Zurich in species count: Leipzig has 2.4x more ectotherms than Zurich.
And from the photos that I have seen, yes, Zurich's vivariums look more modern and flashy, but for the animal, they are virtually the same thing. It doesn't matter to the animal that outside their enclosure there is a slightly old glass roof. In fact, if anything, Leipzig has enclosures with more greenery and more places to hide for the animal than Zurich. Take a look at the Aquarium Landschaftsbecken and the Aquarium Ringbecken 360 images.

They are perfect for the animals they house, and large enough too. I do not think it is at all correct to say that Zurich' aquarium is better just because they painted it and made the exhibits look modern but also harder to look into, whilst disregarding the species count and the actual quality of the enclosure itself and not the space for the visitors outside.

 

[lintworm]

That is not taking into account Leipzig's destruction of Zurich in species count: Leipzig has 2.4x more ectotherms than Zurich.

Currently Leipzig does however keep less species, as some animals have been moved out during the renovations.

They are perfect for the animals they house, and large enough too. I do not think it is at all correct to say that Zurich' aquarium is better just because they painted it and made the exhibits look modern but also harder to look into, whilst disregarding the species count and the actual quality of the enclosure itself and not the space for the visitors outside.

The enclosures are not harder to look into and also in terms of interior design I would say they are superior to what Leipzig used to have, but less in number. As someone focusing more on unique experiences, Zurich certainly delivers and Leipzig quite frankly does a lesser job in that.

 

[Chlidonias]

I'm voting 2-1 for Zurich. I don't like voting 3-0 unless the losing zoo is really poor at the category. Leipzig seems like it does have a very good collection, and it has Gondwanaland, but it really can't compare to Zurich's exhibits for ectotherms no matter what the species might be. Mostly I think the Masoala Hall makes it an easy victory for Zurich.

 

[antonmuster]

That is not taking into account Leipzig's destruction of Zurich in species count: Leipzig has 2.4x more ectotherms than Zurich.
And from the photos that I have seen, yes, Zurich's vivariums look more modern and flashy, but for the animal, they are virtually the same thing. It doesn't matter to the animal that outside their enclosure there is a slightly old glass roof. In fact, if anything, Leipzig has enclosures with more greenery and more places to hide for the animal than Zurich. Take a look at the Aquarium Landschaftsbecken and the Aquarium Ringbecken 360 images.

They are perfect for the animals they house, and large enough too. I do not think it is at all correct to say that Zurich' aquarium is better just because they painted it and made the exhibits look modern but also harder to look into, whilst disregarding the species count and the actual quality of the enclosure itself and not the space for the visitors outside.

I have made my argument regarding the speciosity argument. And I do factor in species, just not their bare number. I find snapping turtles mesmerizing, and large crocodilians, and arapaima, and many more, and Leipzig having them is definitely a plus over Zurich. I trust (and hope) that Leipzig will renovate the 360 Ringbecken into something truly wonderful, which could sway me more in the direction of Leipzig. The images of the old Ringbecken, to me, honestly appear a bit stale. The terraria in the greenhouse appear somewhat unimaginative. A row of fairly standardized adequately planted and structured glass boxes. Very efficient for keeping many animals and species. But a row of decent terraria doesn't do too much for me. Many dedicated private holders, I would argue, build comparable or superior terraria. But that is not what I am looking for in a zoo. I expect zoos to excel in enclosure design. Because they can, if they so choose (i.e. the have the funds and the professional staff for this). Zurich also has a few such rather 'dull' terraria - most notably the one for New Caledionian giant gecko - but they are comparatively few and far between. Clearly, Leipzig has a vision and a track record showing that they know how to do excellent exhibits. But you are also founding your argument pro Leipzig in large part on something that does not exist anymore, or does not exist yet.

I find your argument that Zurich's (new) enclosures are less naturalistic and/or behaviorally friendly than Leipzig's and that they simply added a layer of flashy paint (so to say) unfounded. Zurich completely emptied the aquarium section to the core, because they had to do renovation work on the foundation walls, and then rebuilt the entire interior from scratch, drastically reducing the number of aquaria in favor of fewer but larger landscape aquaria. See this construction documentation link for images: Zoo Zürich, Aquarien. Or look at the images of the terraria and perentie enclosures in the Australia section. The perentie enclosures alone take up enough space which in a traditional vivarium could be used for dozens if not considerably more medium to large sized terraria and/or aquaria.

 

[amur leopard]

Even if they have got rid of a few species (and it is a few species, not many), they still have over twice the number of species, and each of those species have more than adequate enclosures. This, to me, indicates more than a 'solid' collection than what other people have indicated. If you do not give any credit to the number of species a zoo holds, then how can anyone win against Zurich?