ZooChat Cup Group E: Denver vs Pairi Daiza

[amur leopard]

ALL zoo decisions, at ALL zoos involve politics, prestige and money - especially if those decisions involve China. The Pandas will be seen (by the public), as a sign of Beauval's and PD's general success, and massive on-going development and expansion - this is not the case at a (stagnant?) zoo like Edinburgh where they could be seen as a sign of failure.

Can I just confirm that there is NO political incentive in Pairi Daiza getting pandas - they did not have lengthy talks with Brussels and China, deciding whether the secret services of the two countries would join forces to allow the panda 'ambassadors' to come over. That particular panda transfer, like so many others, was NOT at all political, because firstly, Pairi Daiza is not a National zoo (so it symbolizes nothing) and secondly, China have absolutely no interest in Belgium - to them it is a minunscule country with no power or economic strength. Only 1.8% of Belgium's tiny exports actually go to China anyway, so...
The primary incentive, if not the only incentive in the Pairi Daiza transfer is money. What else could it be? Prestige? Pairi Daiza don't care about that... that is why they keep their white tigers in a pit... Pandas are there for profit so that they can build more exhibits for rarer animals that interest zoo nerds like us!!!

 

[Andrew Swales]

Can I just confirm that there is NO political incentive in Pairi Daiza getting pandas - they did not have lengthy talks with Brussels and China,

That particular panda transfer, like so many others, was NOT at all political,

Prestige? Pairi Daiza don't care about that

This is rubbish...!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Exactly, proving my point. They aim to get the prestige SO THAT visitors come, and they get profit.

Except that as both myself and @lintworm have explained, the boost in footfall (and increase in income) is short-lived.... whilst the loan costs keep coming. Those million-dollar payments to Beijing have a nasty tendency to add up, as does the cost in keeping the animals themselves. The collections which don't suffer problems are those big enough (San Diego, Berlin) or independently wealthy enough (Beauval, Pairi) to take the blow.

For instance, the Edinburgh animals arrived in Dec 2011; the zoo recorded income of £14.9M and expenditure of £13.5M in the 2012 annual report with a net profit of £1.4M. However by the 2017 annual report the zoo reported income of £14.6M and expenditure of £15.4M with a net loss of £0.8M. Even disregarding any increase in costs, it cannot be denied that 5 years into a panda loan the zoo had less income than it did at the start of the loan.

 

[amur leopard]

If you would have read my previous post, Pairi Daiza officials have all but confirmed it is for prestige only and NOT for money.

Your Beauval example is also dubious as the first rule in statistics is that correlation does not imply causation.

As for Beauval, this is off-topic but I'm still going to answer.

This is a slightly truncated list of Beauval's developments since 1990.

1991: Arrival of white tigers
1992: Great Apes complex
1993: Vivarium
1994: Bird aviaries
1995: Seal lions
1996: Raccoons, otters and macaques
1997: Gorillas and manatees
1999: White lions and African savanna
2000: Addition of three white rhinos
2001: Parrot nursery built
2002: Australian house
2003: African elephant area
2004: New vivarium
2005: Okapis
2006: Somalian asses, Javan langurs, clouded leopards
2007: Penguins and pampas
2010: Asiatic Plains
2011: China area (built in anticipation of Pandas)
2012: PANDAS
2013: New bird aviaries built and old ones given a complete makeover
2014: Maitres des airs show.
2015: Sea lion show, opening of a hotel
2016: Hippos, nyalas, vultures and red river hogs.
2017: Massive new habitat for lions, African wild dogs, meerkat, bongos, lesser kudus
2018: New habitat for arctic wolves, brown bears, cheetahs....
2019: (So far) skyfari and tazzie devils.

So spending, was high in the 1990s due to rising popularity, then decreased due to zoos' descending popularity, and now, against the flow of descending popularity in most collections, they suddenly get tonnes of money to build massive, state-of-the-art complexes for a variety of new and old species. What caused this sudden resurgence in 2012 after years of depletion in the early 2000s? Pandas of course.

And, yes, correlation does not imply causation, but if you would be hard pressed to find me another plausible reason as to why Beauval suddenly had much more money to spend after 2012.

Can I just confirm that there is NO political incentive in Pairi Daiza getting pandas - they did not have lengthy talks with Brussels and China,

That particular panda transfer, like so many others, was NOT at all political,

Prestige? Pairi Daiza don't care about that

This is rubbish...!

As for this post, would you care to give me a grain of a reason as to why it is? Then I can't actually do anything without repeating previous points, which I will do anyway

First point: there is no political incentive!!! I know pandas are used as political tools by China, but that doesn't mean that is always the case! Belgium and China have virtually no trade incentives, they are on opposite sides of the globe and Belgium is a landlocked country with virtually no overseas exports. It isn't political - trust me - I study Geography, Economics and History.

As for the second point, same answer.

And the third. They don't mind how they look to zoo nerds, that much is displayed by their extravagant theming and apparent disregard for animal welfare in certain cases.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Pandas are there for profit so that they can build more exhibits for rarer animals that interest zoo nerds like us!!!

I thought you said that...

I never said Pairi Daiza NEEDED money I said they WANTED money.

...because it sounds awfully like you are claiming Pairi need the (alleged) panda profits to continue developing and obtaining species

The cost for all the odd species (and geological specimens, and genuine architectural theming from overseas, and so forth) is more than adequately covered by the fact a literal billionaire owns the collection.... as are all the financial costs of having giant pandas!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Belgium is a landlocked country

I must have hallucinated visiting the Belgian coastline a mere 2 months ago

 

[Mehdi]

I know pandas are used as political tools by China, but that doesn't mean that is always the case! Belgium and China have virtually no trade incentives, they are on opposite sides of the globe and Belgium is a landlocked country with virtually no overseas exports. It isn't political - trust me - I study Geography, Economics and History.

It's not as if the European council was in Belgium and that Brussels is often considered politically to be the "capital of Europe". Not saying that the Pairi's import was political (I don't have an answer for that) but since China is trying to create ties with Europe (as you can see by the numbers of European pandas and pandas holders leaping since 2017), Belgium would be a perfect candidate and definitely not a country China doesn't care about.

 

[amur leopard]

For instance, the Edinburgh animals arrived in Dec 2011; the zoo recorded income of £14.9M and expenditure of £13.5M in the 2012 annual report with a net profit of £1.4M. However by the 2017 annual report the zoo reported income of £14.6M and expenditure of £15.4M with a net loss of £0.8M. Even disregarding any increase in costs, it cannot be denied that 5 years into a panda loan the zoo had less income than it did at the start of the loan.

I never gave the example of Edinburgh and I admit it didn't work out. All I am saying is that Beauval and Pairi Daiza got their pandas for purely monetary reasons. (And it worked)

 

[amur leopard]

I must have hallucinated visiting the Belgian coastline a mere 2 months ago

Oops lol that was funny

It's not as if the European council was in Belgium and that Brussels is often considered politically to be the "capital of Europe". Not saying that the Pairi's import was political (I don't have an answer for that) but since China is trying to create ties with Europe (as you can see by the numbers of European pandas and pandas holders leaping since 2017), Belgium would be a perfect candidate and definitely not a country China doesn't care about.

I am saying there is no political incentive for China to do give Pairi pandas. Brussels is not associated with Pairi, and therefore Pairi is not associated with the EU. Therefore, either China chose the wrong zoo to do dealings with, or it was not political, and I suspect it is the latter; Chinese politicians and ambassadors are not stupid

 

[littleRedPanda]

With regards the 'political' point, I wonder if you've taken that point too literally? I'm sure even at your age, you have heard of workplace politics, which I'm sure Andrew was referring to, rather than the governing of the countries.

 

[amur leopard]

With regards the 'political' point, I wonder if you've taken that point too literally? I'm sure even at your age, you have heard of workplace politics, which I'm sure Andrew was referring to, rather than the governing of the countries.

Isolating this post from others, which I accept may have been slightly aggressive, and meaning this question in the kindest way possible, (this is why chatting online is harder than speaking, because the reader doesn't know what tone you are using) but in what way would workplace politics influence the decision to get pandas?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I never gave the example of Edinburgh and I admit it didn't work out. All I am saying is that Beauval and Pairi Daiza got their pandas for purely monetary reasons. (And it worked)

Actually you started off by point-blank saying that giant pandas are profitable and disputing our statements that this is only true in the short term:

Pandas make a HUGE amount of profit you don't even know.

So it is actually generating a lot of money which they use to build the fantastic enclosures and import oddities and gems, as well as to conduct conservation efforts.

...so I provided actual figures to disprove your claims.

All I am saying is that Beauval and Pairi Daiza got their pandas for purely monetary reasons. (And it worked)

Again repeating an unsubstantiated claim and ignoring the point that in the case of Pairi the developments you cite as proof are paid for by a literal billionaire.

This latter point, by the by, is liable to have a bearing on the issue of why Pairi were approved by the Chinese government if they are contacted by a collection which can a) easily afford the loan costs and b) pay to bring over and employ a whole team of Chinese keepers to work with the animals, it's an easy choice.

In other words the monetary gain and motives are on the part of China, not Pairi.

 

[Shorts]

Firstly, don't waste your energy responding to this post -I won't respond as, from experience, it's a waste of my time debating with zealots who just keep doubling down on initial statements without really listening or addressing counter-points made by others. But.....

It isn't political - trust me - I study Geography, Economics and History.

1. That's just a little patronising, how do you know what other posters areas of expertise are?
2. Besides, just because you study a subject doesn't make you a complete experts (or right) on all related matters;
3. Just to emphasise the point, I've got a cycling proficiency certificate and driving licence (both of which I studied for and passed tests) but know sod all about bikes or cars (struggle to identify any makes I've never driven) and freely admit I'm not the best of drivers. I've also got a degree in economics but wouldn't ever purport to be 100% right about all or any issues involving economics.

As a professional, one thing I do know is that knowing the limits of your knowledge and experience is as important as any qualification you have (or are studying for). Sometime as little humility goes a long way.

Peace, out -have a good Sunday.

 

[amur leopard]

Actually you started off by point-blank saying that giant pandas are profitable and disputing our statements that this is only true in the short term:

Firstly, I didn't, the posts you quote were referring (not explicitely, I admit), to Pairi and Beauval.

...so I provided actual figures to disprove your claims.

When? I never said Edinburgh made a lot of money out of them.

Secondly, I gave all the proof I have at my disposal, which is proof enough unless you suddenly morphed into an investor overnight TLD
I have given solid proof that Beauval has profited out of the pandas, and that the main reason they got them must have been for monetary reasons, because it cannot, logically and mathematically, be political.

Again repeating an unsubstantiated claim and ignoring the point that in the case of Pairi the developments you cite as proof are paid for by a literal billionaire.

This latter point, by the by, is liable to have a bearing on the issue of why Pairi were approved by the Chinese government if they are contacted by a collection which can a) easily afford the loan costs and b) pay to bring over and employ a whole team of Chinese keepers to work with the animals, it's an easy choice.

In other words the monetary gain and motives are on the part of China, not Pairi.

I never said that Pairi's developments were proof to profit via Giant pandas, and the zoo is only now subsidised slightly; Pairi is not a zoo like San Diego or even Beauval...

 

[amur leopard]

1. That's just a little patronising, how do you know what other posters areas or expertise are?
2. Besides, just because you study a subject doesn't make you a complete experts (or right) on all related matters;
3. Just to emphasise the point, I've got a cycling proficiency certificate and driving licence (both of which I studied for and passed tests) but know sod all about bikes or cars (struggle to identify any makes I've never driven) and freely admit I'm not the best of drivers. I've also got a degree in economics but wouldn't ever purport to be 100% right about all or any issues involving economics.

As a professional, one thing I do know is that knowing the limits of your knowledge and experience is as important as any qualification you have (or are studying for). Sometime as little humility goes a long way.

Peace, out -have a good Sunday.

I never said it as offering proof that I am right, I said it because many of the people on this thread tend to patronise me and always say I am wrong simply because I am younger...
I never said I was an expert: I agree with your three points set out, but when you are saying I am being patronising, I find that offensive and a bit hypocritical...

Then, your finale ('sometime as little humility goes a long way') is unfair, and I get where you are coming from to some extent. Some of my posts on this thread may sound aggressive because you people disagree with me, and so you are bound to slightly twist the tone with which I post my comments and take it in an aggressive way, just as I do sometimes. That is a problem with chats online - tone and the way you say something completely changes a sentence from aggressive to, in some cases kind. None of my posts were meant in an aggressive, patronising or arrogant way...
Have a good Sunday as well
Peace

Firstly, don't waste your energy responding to this post -I won't respond as, from experience, it's a waste of my time debating with zealots who just keep doubling down on initial statements without really listening or addressing counter-points made by others. But.....

Not gonna lie, this can be interpreted in many different ways, as an example. One could interpret it as it is meant (or at least how I think it is meant), where you are saying that a lot of people (myself included) on this forum tend to just post blindly without taking into account what others have said deeply.
But it could also be read as extremely insulting, especially with the inclusion of zealot, which can mean anything from nerd to terrorist. If I were in a bad mood (which I'm not, since I am on Zoochat, which is, honestly, the highlight of my day normally) I could easily interpret it as a direct attack on my personality and extremely offensive.
If you don't reply, I don't mind, because you are being true to your word, but I just wanted to set out my intentions as clear as possible.

 

[CGSwans]

You know, guys, a few hours ago I felt this was the best Cup thread we’ve ever had.

 

[zoogiraffe]

I never realised this was a comedy site,but I have been laughing solidly for 30 minutes reading this!!!!

 

[Mehdi]

Brussels is not associated with Pairi, and therefore Pairi is not associated with the EU. Therefore, either China chose the wrong zoo to do dealings with, or it was not political, and I suspect it is the latter;

This is my last post as well since we're truly getting off-topic but anyway, Pairi is kind of associated with Bruxelles knowing that it's probably the closest major Belgian zoo there is to it and that Bruxelles has no proper zoo. Again, I'm not saying the main reason to bring them was political but even if it was, Pairi would probably be a very good if not the best fit in Belgium

 

[amur leopard]

I never realised this was a comedy site,but I have been laughing solidly for 30 minutes reading this!!!!

Glad to know I have saved you 4 hours of sleep

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-scienti...er-equals-the-benefit-of-the-2-hours-of-sleep

not the most trustworthy source, but...

 

[amur leopard]

You know, guys, a few hours ago I felt this was the best Cup thread we’ve ever had.

I'm sorry, but... it takes two to tango....