ZooChat Cup Group H: Chester v Omaha

[CGSwans]

This is probably one of the most important matches of the entire first group stage. Ungulates and elephants.

A little refresher on the rules:

• You have three votes to award: you can award all three votes to one zoo, if you think it’s vastly superior in the given category, but if you think it’s closer than that then award two votes to the stronger zoo and one to the weaker zoo.
• Stick to the topic: each match has one category and you need to confine your decision-making and advocacy strictly to that category.
• No strategic voting. Vote for the zoo you honestly think deserves to win, not simply the one you like best. Doing that only breaks the game.
• The point of this game is to stoke debate. Argue your case for why you are voting the way you are, and why others should too. At the same time, keep an open mind and be willing to change your vote in response to a good argument.
• Votes are public and that means you’re free to ask people to explain why they are voting a certain way. But do it respectfully.
• This game is supposed to be fun. Play nice.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Ooh a match between two of my favorite zoos in the entire cup! Both have strong collections with very good habitats for them. Let's see how they match up:

Omaha
-Impala
-Yellow-Backed Duiker
-Sable Antelope
-Klipspringer
-Eastern Bongo
-Sichuan Takin
-Central Chinese Goral
-Western Tufted Deer
-Pere David's Deer
-Reeves's Muntjac
-hybrid giraffe
-Okapi
-Pygmy Hippopotamus
-Plains Zebra
-Southern White Rhinoceros
-Indian Rhinoceros
-Malayan Tapir
-African Bush Elephant

Chester
-Red River Hog
-North Sulawesi Babirusa
-Negros Warty Pig
-Common Warthog
-Rothschild's Giraffe
-Okapi
-Philippine Chevrotain
-Indian Muntjac
-Southern Pudu
-Brow-Antlered Deer
-Visayan Spotted Deer
-Javan Banteng
-Lowland Anoa
-African Forest Buffalo
-Eastern Bongo
-Western Sitatunga
-Roan Antelope
-Kirk's Dik-Dik
-Red Forest Duiker
-Grevy's Zebra
-Persian Onager
-Eastern Black Rhinoceros
-Indian Rhinoceros
-Malayan Tapir
-Brazilian Tapir
-Asian Elephant

So that's Omaha with 18 vs Chester with 26 species. Both zoos have fantastic elephant exhibits and large grassy fields for their herds to graze on. Omaha has possibly the best Takin/goral enclosure in the US with varied terrain, real rocks, and plenty of spaces to hide, whereas Chester has arguably the best Black Rhino breeding facilities in Europe with at least six lush yards and several houses. On one hand, Omaha has a new grand African savanna, though, with multiple mixed species pastures while Chester has yet to begin their new African grasslands and therefore keep most of their African hoofstock in single species yards. On the other hand, we have Omaha maintaining a hybrid population of giraffes while Chester has a great breeding program for an endangered pure population. Omaha brought in several of their elephants from Swaziland, preventing their untimely deaths and bringing in much needed bloodlines for the US populations. Meanwhile, Chester's elephant herd is four generations(!) deep and has been one of the leaders in studying/fighting EEHV. I have now run out of facts I know about Omaha... however I still have one more for Chester: they maintain possibly the largest and most successful breeding population of babirusa outside of Asia with nearly 20 pigs!

This is a really tough one, and I look forward to further discussion from both sides. For now I'm voting 2-1 Chester due to their larger and rarer collection, along with their impressive stats and great enclosures. I could pretty easily be swayed the other way, though.

~Thylo

 

[Brum]

Ooh a match between two of my favorite zoos in the entire cup! Both have strong collections with very good habitats for them. Let's see how they match up:

Omaha
-Impala
-Yellow-Backed Duiker
-Sable Antelope
-Klipspringer
-Eastern Bongo
-Sichuan Takin
-Central Chinese Goral
-Western Tufted Deer
-Pere David's Deer
-Reeves's Muntjac
-hybrid giraffe
-Okapi
-Pygmy Hippopotamus
-Plains Zebra
-Southern White Rhinoceros
-Indian Rhinoceros
-Malayan Tapir
-African Bush Elephant

Chester
-Red River Hog
-North Sulawesi Babirusa
-Negros Warty Pig
-Common Warthog
-Rothschild's Giraffe
-Okapi
-Philippine Chevrotain
-Indian Muntjac
-Southern Pudu
-Brow-Antlered Deer
-Visayan Spotted Deer
-Javan Banteng
-Lowland Anoa
-African Forest Buffalo
-Eastern Bongo
-Western Sitatunga
-Roan Antelope
-Kirk's Dik-Dik
-Red Forest Duiker
-Grevy's Zebra
-Persian Onager
-Eastern Black Rhinoceros
-Indian Rhinoceros
-Malayan Tapir
-Brazilian Tapir
-Asian Elephant

So that's Omaha with 18 vs Chester with 26 species. Both zoos have fantastic elephant exhibits and large grassy fields for their herds to graze on. Omaha has possibly the best Takin/goral enclosure in the US with varied terrain, real rocks, and plenty of spaces to hide, whereas Chester has arguably the best Black Rhino breeding facilities in Europe with at least six lush yards and several houses. On one hand, Omaha has a new grand African savanna, though, with multiple mixed species pastures while Chester has yet to begin their new African grasslands and therefore keep most of their African hoofstock in single species yards. On the other hand, we have Omaha maintaining a hybrid population of giraffes while Chester has a great breeding program for an endangered pure population. Omaha brought in several of their elephants from Swaziland, preventing their untimely deaths and bringing in much needed bloodlines for the US populations. Meanwhile, Chester's elephant herd is four generations(!) deep and has been one of the leaders in studying/fighting EEHV. I have now run out of facts I know about Omaha... however I still have one more for Chester: they maintain possibly the largest and most successful breeding population of babirusa outside of Asia with nearly 20 pigs!

This is a really tough one, and I look forward to further discussion from both sides. For now I'm voting 2-1 Chester due to their larger and rarer collection, along with their impressive stats and great enclosures. I could pretty easily be swayed the other way, though.

~Thylo

You've swayed me from a 2-1 Omaha to a 2-1 Chester.

 

[twilighter]

I was leaving with the impression, that Omaha has the biggest Gaur herd outside India.Thought also, that most extensive research of this species is done in Omaha. Aren't they keep Gaurs anymore?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I was leaving with the impression, that Omaha has the biggest Gaur herd outside India.Thought also, that most extensive research of this species is done in Omaha. Aren't they keep Gaurs anymore?

The zoo no longer keeps Gaur unfortunately. They may still have some at the safari park run by the zoo, but none are on zoo grounds and I believe the safari park would be considered a separate collection from the zoo.

~Thylo

 

[twilighter]

I was expecting tough battle here, but from the comprehensive information that
@ThylacineAlive provide it looks like one-side game. Also changing my vote from 2:1 for Omaha to 2:1 for Chester and follow the debate.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Omaha definitely did a great job with their new Asian hoofstock exhibits, not only the great takin/goral enclosure but also the new digs for Indian rhinos, Pere David's deer, and muntjac. They also have a beautiful giraffe/rhino enclosure in the African Savanna area. That being said, the zoo has received criticism before for the tapir and pygmy hippo enclosures in the Lied Jungle, as well as possibly the peccary enclosure in the Desert Dome. I didn't think any of them were bad necessarily, but they all appeared to be on the small size. I'd have to go back and look at photos to give any additional thoughts on them.

 

[CGSwans]

Omaha definitely did a great job with their new Asian hoofstock exhibits, not only the great takin/goral enclosure but also the new digs for Indian rhinos, Pere David's deer, and muntjac. They also have a beautiful giraffe/rhino enclosure in the African Savanna area. That being said, the zoo has received criticism before for the tapir and pygmy hippo enclosures in the Lied Jungle, as well as possibly the peccary enclosure in the Desert Dome. I didn't think any of them were bad necessarily, but they all appeared to be on the small size. I'd have to go back and look at photos to give any additional thoughts on them.

Do those species have outside access, at least during summer?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Omaha definitely did a great job with their new Asian hoofstock exhibits, not only the great takin/goral enclosure but also the new digs for Indian rhinos, Pere David's deer, and muntjac. They also have a beautiful giraffe/rhino enclosure in the African Savanna area. That being said, the zoo has received criticism before for the tapir and pygmy hippo enclosures in the Lied Jungle, as well as possibly the peccary enclosure in the Desert Dome. I didn't think any of them were bad necessarily, but they all appeared to be on the small size. I'd have to go back and look at photos to give any additional thoughts on them.

I reminded myself to add the peccaries to the list and I still forgot! But yeah the tapir enclosure is probably the worse of all of those. I like the peccary and hippo enclosures to an extent despite being indoors, although I could definitely criticize them.

Do those species have outside access, at least during summer?

They do not.

~Thylo

 

[Gondwana]

In addition to the already mentioned species, Omaha had Baird's Tapir in the Lied Jungle and Red River Hog in the Gorilla area. Are those gone now?

 

[Coelacanth18]

In addition to the already mentioned species, Omaha had Baird's Tapir in the Lied Jungle and Red River Hog in the Gorilla area. Are those gone now?

Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing both Baird's and Malayan tapirs in Lied Jungle. I don't remember seeing any RRHs by the gorillas, though.

The 2018 species list posted by @TinoPup corroborates my memories: Species Lists [Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo]

 

[ThylacineAlive]

In addition to the already mentioned species, Omaha had Baird's Tapir in the Lied Jungle and Red River Hog in the Gorilla area. Are those gone now?

Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing both Baird's and Malayan tapirs in Lied Jungle. I don't remember seeing any RRHs by the gorillas, though.

The 2018 species list posted by @TinoPup corroborates my memories: Species Lists [Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo]

I didn't see any sign of them back in May.

~Thylo

 

[TinoPup]

Baird's, past the pygmy hippos. The animal had more space but was choosing to nap there, further away from visitors.

 

[TinoPup]

The zoo no longer keeps Gaur unfortunately. They may still have some at the safari park run by the zoo, but none are on zoo grounds and I believe the safari park would be considered a separate collection from the zoo.

~Thylo

They haven't had gaurs at Simmons in at least several years.

 

[snowleopard]

Well, I'm going to buck the trend and vote 2-1 for Omaha

I've never visited Chester Zoo, but the amount of photos and information about it on ZooChat is mind-boggling...no other zoo has such a presence. Without a doubt Chester is one of the world's great zoos. The same thing can obviously be said in regards to Omaha and the facility is very strong in ungulates and elephants. Adding in Baird's Tapirs and Collared Peccaries to the excellent list provided by @ThylacineAlive , the species head-to-head score is 26-20 in favour of Chester.

Attention can then shift to Omaha's exhibits and it's certainly not cool having Malayan Tapirs, Baird's Tapirs and Pygmy Hippos all in the Lied Jungle without access to outdoor exhibits...although I personally think that the Malayan Tapirs are the only ones with a truly outdated enclosure and at least those animals have optimal temperature conditions year-round. The African Elephant exhibit in Omaha is significantly larger than the size of the one in Chester (which is arguably a bit cramped by American standards), there was a large herd of approximately 10 giraffes during my visit in the summer of 2018 (and with at least 8 Impala and other species in that mixed-species habitat), and the 28-acre African Grasslands zone also has spacious exhibits for species such as Sable Antelope, Bongo and White Rhino.

The Asian Highlands zone has Greater One-Horned Rhino, Sichuan Takin, Chinese Goral, Pere David's Deer and Tufted Deer in brand-new, truly superb exhibits. Based on the fact that I've visited the zoo in Omaha on 3 occasions, I feel as if it might have the edge in this match-up with better quality exhibits. Chester 'wins' the species count and has many nicely landscaped ungulate enclosures, but is there anything there on the scale of Omaha? Chester is planning to build a large, 'Grasslands' style complex, but Omaha is already far ahead of its British counterpart and has one up and running. Both African Grasslands and Asian Highlands have been built since 2016 and they are amazing areas of 28 acres and 8 acres, respectively, with many ungulate exhibits spread around the zoo. What does Chester have, in this particular category, to rival those combined 36 acres? I think that exhibit-wise Omaha wins this 2-1 with its overall quality.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Baird's, past the pygmy hippos. The animal had more space but was choosing to nap there, further away from visitors.

View attachment 415603

Good to know. I didn't even see a sign for them.

They haven't had gaurs at Simmons in at least several years.

Are you sure? Last I heard (only a week or so ago), there were quite a few Gaur somewhere in Omaha's possession.

Well, I'm going to buck the trend and vote 2-1 for Omaha

I've never visited Chester Zoo, but the amount of photos and information about it on ZooChat is mind-boggling...no other zoo has such a presence. Without a doubt Chester is one of the world's great zoos. The same thing can obviously be said in regards to Omaha and the facility is very strong in ungulates and elephants. Adding in Baird's Tapirs and Collared Peccaries to the excellent list provided by @ThylacineAlive , the species head-to-head score is 26-20 in favour of Chester.

Attention can then shift to Omaha's exhibits and it's certainly not cool having Malayan Tapirs, Baird's Tapirs and Pygmy Hippos all in the Lied Jungle without access to outdoor exhibits...although I personally think that the Malayan Tapirs are the only ones with a truly outdated enclosure and at least those animals have optimal temperature conditions year-round. The African Elephant exhibit in Omaha is significantly larger than the size of the one in Chester (which is arguably a bit cramped by American standards), there was a large herd of approximately 10 giraffes during my visit in the summer of 2018 (and with at least 8 Impala and other species in that mixed-species habitat), and the 28-acre African Grasslands zone also has spacious exhibits for species such as Sable Antelope, Bongo and White Rhino.

The Asian Highlands zone has Greater One-Horned Rhino, Sichuan Takin, Chinese Goral, Pere David's Deer and Tufted Deer in brand-new, truly superb exhibits. Based on the fact that I've visited the zoo in Omaha on 3 occasions, I feel as if it might have the edge in this match-up with better quality exhibits. Chester 'wins' the species count and has many nicely landscaped ungulate enclosures, but is there anything there on the scale of Omaha? Chester is planning to build a large, 'Grasslands' style complex, but Omaha is already far ahead of its British counterpart and has one up and running. Both African Grasslands and Asian Highlands have been built since 2016 and they are amazing areas of 28 acres and 8 acres, respectively, with many ungulate exhibits spread around the zoo. What does Chester have, in this particular category, to rival those combined 36 acres? I think that exhibit-wise Omaha wins this 2-1 with its overall quality.

I have to disagree with your assessment on Chester's elephant habitat. Below are a few photos showing portions of the main yard:
New jet to spray the elephants - ZooChat
22/10/2017 Asian Elephants Feeding - ZooChat
Elephant Enclosure - ZooChat
Elephant Enclosure 27-3-14 - ZooChat

Note that none of those photos are able to show the yard in its entirety. The large mixed habitat at Omaha is undoubtedly larger than Chester's but how often do the elephants have access to the entirety of the exhibit? On my visit, the elephants were confined to this secondary yard which sits in between the main habitat and the house. They were only allowed into the main yard for the elephant keeper talk before being brought back into the smaller yard while the zoo's zebras had range of the main area that day. I'm not saying this is the norm, but this is how the were displayed throughout my two day visit back in May. Additionally, it is my understanding that Chester's elephants have 24 hour free access to both their indoor and outdoor quarters weather and maintenance depending, whereas Omaha's elephants are shuffled between yards and their indoor house multiple times a day. Not to say the latter is bad management in anyway, it's likely necessary hence why the main yard is very lush and green while Chester's is just dirt/sand, but there is a difference.

I agree with you on the high quality of the Asian and African hoofstock yards at Omaha, but Chester does have many great ones as well:
Asian Plains - ZooChat
Black Rhino, Sammy in the distance - ZooChat
Tsavo Black Rhino experience at Chester Zoo 31/03/12 - ZooChat
Tsavo black rhino experience at Chester Zoo 31/03/12 - ZooChat
Black Rhino - ZooChat
Extended Philippine Spotted Deer exhibit at Chester 06/12/09 - ZooChat
Extended Philippine Spotted Deer exhibit at Chester 06/12/09 - ZooChat
Ostrich and Sitatunga at Chester Dec 08 - ZooChat
Congo Buffalo herd at Chester Zoo 31/03/12 - ZooChat
Islands - Banteng enclosure 031015 - ZooChat
Islands - 13/01/2019 - ZooChat
Babirusa enclosure (by Fruit Bat Forest) - ZooChat
Babirusa Enclosure - ZooChat
Islands: warty pig enclosure and house - ZooChat
Is the Warty Pig Supposed to be up here? - ZooChat
New Bongo Area - ZooChat
View off the monorail of paddocks Lesser kudu on right and Roan Antelope on - ZooChat
Kirk's Dik-Dik exhibit at Chester 06/12/09 - ZooChat
Giraffe paddock - 30 May 2015 - ZooChat
Giraffe exhibit at Chester, 23/07/14 - ZooChat
Okapi and Natal Red Duiker at Chester, 27/07/14 - ZooChat
Okapi - ZooChat
Malayan Tapir Outdoor 2 - ZooChat
Malayan Tapir Outdoor - ZooChat
Grevy's Zebra Paddock - ZooChat
Re-furbed Onager and Bactrian camel Paddock - ZooChat
Re-furbed Onager and Bactrian camel Paddock - ZooChat

I think I've made the point. For me, the main difference between the two zoos that pushes me towards Chester is the fact that Chester has consistently good enclosures while some of the ones at Omaha are questionable for a lot of people. Chester isn't building a new African grasslands exhibit because they need to, they're doing it because 1) they need to move the giraffes to the African area to make room for future developments, 2) they wish to continue to add non-ungulate African species, and 3) their motto is "never stop building". I'm not actually entirely sure how many of those African hoofstock yards are completely going in the first place. I think a large part of the new exhibit is going to be reworking and better utilizing the area as opposed to replacing bad enclosures. The finale clinching point for me is, while Omaha's collection is great, Chester seem to be making more of an effort to go into and breed highly endangered species. Part of this difference will be availability, as obviously there are no Philippine Chevrotains or Visayan Spotted Deer in the US, and there aren't enough Persian Onagers or purebred giraffes to go around even if Omaha wanted them, so maybe this point is a tad unfair. There are, however, a lot of endangered antelopes, gazelles, and Asian deer in the US which the AZA is desperate for holders for, yet Omaha doesn't seem to have much interest in adding them into their savannas. Most of the African savanna hoofstock Omaha keeps are the rather easy to acquire and non-endangered ones if we're being honest. Not to say they don't have a place at the zoo and I was happy to see them of course, but my point is Chester clearly succeeds here and the number of hoofstock kept by the zoo is unlikely to do anything other than grow as new exhibits are added.

~Thylo

 

[TinoPup]

Good to know. I didn't even see a sign for them.

Are you sure? Last I heard (only a week or so ago), there were quite a few Gaur somewhere in Omaha's possession.

I can't say 100% because I didn't get to see the entire facility, but on my behind-the-scenes tour I asked multiple keepers and a person who works for PR, since it's been a topic on here before, and they all said they no longer had the species. This was last October.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I can't say 100% because I didn't get to see the entire facility, but on my behind-the-scenes tour I asked multiple keepers and a person who works for PR, since it's been a topic on here before, and they all said they no longer had the species. This was last October.


View attachment 415604

Interesting. If they really don't keep them anymore then I wonder where they went. 5 AZA institutions still keep them.

The sign could still be there, I'm just saying I didn't see one back in May

~Thylo

 

[TinoPup]

Interesting. If they really don't keep them anymore then I wonder where they went. 5 AZA institutions still keep them.

The sign could still be there, I'm just saying I didn't see one back in May

~Thylo

That, they weren't sure of; the main people guiding me had only been there a few years and said the gaurs had left before they began working there.

I completely understand that I usually don't take mammal sign photos so I'm surprised I had it!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The African Elephant exhibit in Omaha is significantly larger than the size of the one in Chester (which is arguably a bit cramped by American standards)

"Arguably" very much being the operative word, given the fact that the exterior exhibit nonetheless covers a total of about 1.8 acres.... and the occupants don't have to share it with several other species as is the case at Omaha.

Granted, the one at Omaha appears to cover something like 6 acres - judging from the area calculation tool I used to find the size of the Chester exhibit - but if what Thylo says above is true, the elephants are often confined to a secondary paddock which is 1.5 acres..... smaller than the "cramped" one at Chester