ZooChat Cup Group A: Vienna vs North Carolina

[CGSwans]

This one might not mean a *lot*, given Vienna has safely qualified and North Carolina has safely crashed out. But one zoo has pride on the line and the other has topping the group to think about. The topic? Ungulates and elephants.

I can’t be bothered going back and copy-pasting the rules. You know them. I trust you to follow them.

 

[Penshet]

Vienna has, according to their website:
- Himalayan tahr
- Common hippopotamus
- Kirk's dik-dik
- Nilgai
- Nyala
- American bison
- Reeves' muntjac
- Reticulated giraffe (with Rothschild's giraffe located in an Austrian army barracks if I'm understanding this correctly?)
- African elephant
- Lowland tapir
- Vicuña
- Vietnamese sika deer
- Addra gazelle
- Barbary sheep
- Blackbuck
- Burchell's zebra
- Collared peccary
- Common eland
- Indian rhinoceros
In addition to these species, they also have a larger-than-average variety of horse, goat, sheep, and cattle breeds (I counted 12 on their site), as well as domestic water buffalo and reindeer.

North Carolina has, according to their site:
- Addra gazelle
- African elephant
- American bison
- Bongo
- Elk
- Fringe-eared oryx
- Giraffe
- Greater kudu
- Nile lechwe
- Red river hog
- Sitatunga
- Southern white rhinoceros
- Thomson's gazelle
- Plains zebra

19 species for Vienna (21 if you include the water buffalo and reindeer), 14 for North Carolina.

 

[CGSwans]

@nczoofan , I imagine you will see the current trend of voting and have some thoughts.

 

[Brum]

Hoofstock and elephants are North Carolina's strong point, enclosure-wise at least. Vienna have the better collection but some of their enclosures look a bit cramped in comparison, particularly the elephant exhibit. 2-1 to NC.

 

[snowleopard]

I've visited North Carolina Zoo once and I've never been to Vienna, although I appreciate the list of species provided by @Penshet and that's a valuable resource. However, the exhibits to be found at North Carolina Zoo are breathtaking and surely amidst the best of their kind anywhere in the world. The African Bush Elephant is 7 acres/2.8 hectares in size and is probably the best elephant exhibit I've ever seen. Even when the zoo has consistently maintained 6 or 7 elephants, the enclosure is always green and lush as the sheer size of it is hugely impressive. There are terrific interpretative signs, from dung beetle statues to an actual helicopter, and I've visited 520 different zoos/aquariums in my lifetime and I'd probably admit that North Carolina's Watani Grasslands is the best that I've ever seen for elephants.

7-Acre African Bush Elephant exhibit:

7-Acre African Elephant Exhibit - ZooChat

7-Acre African Bush Elephant exhibit (with large pool):

7-Acre African Elephant Exhibit - ZooChat

African Elephant Research Station (which also includes a full-size helicopter that the public can enter):

African Elephant Research Station - ZooChat

Unique 'Elephant Game' interpretative material:

Elephant Game - ZooChat

North Carolina Zoo also has an exhibit that opened in 1979 that is a few acres in size for Reticulated Giraffes, Plains Zebra and possibly still holding Bongo. It's a partly forested environment that is one of the very best giraffe exhibits I've ever seen.

3.5 Acre Forest Edge - Reticulated Giraffe/Zebra/Ostrich Exhibit - ZooChat

There is also the splendid, 11-acre/4.5 hectare American Bison/Elk exhibit that is an accurate representation of a North American grasslands environment...plus due to the enormous size of the paddock the whole thing stays green even in the hot summer months:

11-Acre Bison/Elk Exhibit - ZooChat

One other thing to mention is the African Plains section of North Carolina Zoo, which is approximately 40 acres/16 hectares in size and basically just as large as the entire Vienna Zoo. Wow!!!

African Plains:

40-Acre Mixed-Species Exhibit - ZooChat

African Plains boardwalk:

40-Acre Mixed-Species Exhibit - Boardwalk - ZooChat

This is a lot of effort for a match-up that appears to be meaningless, but a result here can still determine who Vienna play in the knock-out stage. Those of you voting 2-1 for Vienna makes sense in some way as you've likely never been to North Carolina and perhaps never will because the zoo is in the center of a U.S. state and far away from other famous American zoos. However, the species list for Vienna is almost irrelevant as there is nothing there exhibit-wise that can be compared to what is found at North Carolina Zoo. Just look at the elephant exhibits at the two zoos and there is no comparison in quality. The main hoofstock paddock at North Carolina Zoo is essentially larger than every single exhibit for every single animal combined in Vienna.

Consider the lush, 7-acre African Bush Elephant exhibit, or the multi-acre giraffe/zebra forested environment, or the 11-acre prairie paddock or the 40-acre African Plains exhibit that has at least half-a-dozen White Rhinos with many antelope species. That makes FOUR world-class exhibits that are right up there with the best of their kind.

I'm voting 3-0 North Carolina Zoo

 

[amur leopard]

Although you do have to at least give some credit to Vienna's good enclosures...



Starting with the admittedly so-so African paddocks (though very historically important0



Continuing with the good elephant (indoor) enclosure...



The beautifully restored and spacious giraffe house, still incorporating the historical elements...



A massive and realistic Pampas exhibit...



And finally the excellent Asian plains exhibit with Indian rhinos and sika deer etc...

Not to mention the extraordinary variety of domestics in the beautiful farm area at the top of the zoo..

All in all, considering Vienna's superiority in numbers (and diversity) I'm going for 2-1 Vienna despite NCZ's fantastic African plains exhibit - I don't think one exhibit alone can justify by itself a win, especially not a landslide win against Vienna.

 

[lintworm]

The Elephant enclosure in Vienna is probably the worst enclosure in the whole zoo and indoors really is outdated, with outdoors being nothing more than acceptable, as insights in Elephant keeping have changed massively in the past 25 years.

The Rhino area is pretty good, both outdoors and indoors and many of the African hoofstock paddocks are lovely. The Giraffe house (extension) is also great, outdoors maybe not very spacious but in terms of architecture really good.

That does however fade with the huge spaces and nice landscaping in N-Carolina.

 

[twilighter]

Have not been in either zoos and initially voted for Vienna, based on considerably high standarts that Schonbrunn sets. Will visit it in December and Giraffe + Hippo enclosures, as far as I know are one the best of it's kind. NC on the other side, seems really high quality zoo overall with some top notch hoofed exhibits. I am changing from 2:1 for Vienna to 2:1 for NC.

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks for the photos, @amur leopard , but I'm struggling to see how Vienna gets anything out of this match. Vienna's elephant exhibit doesn't look to be very good at all, with an all-cement indoor area. North Carolina's 7-acre African Bush Elephant exhibit is probably larger than all 5 of the exhibit photos combined that you provided in your response. Since it is an American zoo there is no opportunity to go inside the barn (almost unheard of in North America), but to have 7 acres just for elephants is world-class.

The Giraffe House in Vienna looks to be spectacular, but can it beat a 3.5-acre forested exhibit at North Carolina for the same species? Then there is the 11-acre American Plains enclosure (American Bison/Elk) and the 40-acre African Plains which is about the same size as the entire zoo in Vienna. I am definitely going to stick with 3-0 North Carolina as I think that there really is no comparison between the zoos in this category. I guess I can understand maybe a few European zoo nerds going for 2-1 North Carolina because of the love of Vienna's historic elements and the fact that a lot of individuals don't like the 3-0 scorelines. That's fair enough, but there should honestly be no one voting for Vienna in this category because it's not even close. 'Ungulates and elephants' is a real strength of North Carolina Zoo.

 

[nczoofan]

Much has been discussed above, so I will only add a few things to it (gonna focus on the innovative management done at the NC Zoo).

The rhino and hoofstock Savannah is well over 30 acres in size. Behind the scenes their are several acres more of rhino and hoostock paddocks. Interestingly the rhinos are managed in a way, that staff are largely hands off (as the grass within the exhibit provides the majority of their food supply and the rhinos are left on exhibit pretty much non-stop). The hoofstock in this exhibit are managed fairly hands off as well, and I estimate between all species their must be about 100 individuals in here.

The elephant exhibit is in my opinion the best in the United States. Its about 6/7 acres in size, with a fairly significant barn off exhibit. The zoo has 2 bulls and 4 cows currently, and unlike many zoos the bull is mixed with females the vast majority of time. Compared to the bull exhibit at Vienna, this is definitely an improvement.

These are the standout exhibits for ungulates, yet the giraffe/zebra exhibit and elk/bison exhibit should not be forgotten. Each is several acres in size. Overall the NC Zoo has huge ungulate exhibits for a smaller slate of species than Vienna. They do place animal welfare at the forefront, with innovative approaches to management. I'm gonna vote 3-0 for NC.

Edit:
The outdoor elephant exhibit at Vienna measures .92 acres if generous, including the moats and such. The bull exhibit makes up .22 acres of this. I was originally gonna go 2-1, but this information made me change to 3-0. As well their giraffe exhibit is less than half an acre, again something that troubles me. And lastly their bison exhibit is small and bare earth, which is not something I think I have seen at any zoo I have visited.

 

[amur leopard]

Thanks for the photos, @amur leopard , but I'm struggling to see how Vienna gets anything out of this match. Vienna's elephant exhibit doesn't look to be very good at all, with an all-cement indoor area. North Carolina's 7-acre African Bush Elephant exhibit is probably larger than all 5 of the exhibit photos combined that you provided in your response. Since it is an American zoo there is no opportunity to go inside the barn (almost unheard of in North America), but to have 7 acres just for elephants is world-class.

The Giraffe House in Vienna looks to be spectacular, but can it beat a 3.5-acre forested exhibit at North Carolina for the same species? Then there is the 11-acre American Plains enclosure (American Bison/Elk) and the 40-acre African Plains which is about the same size as the entire zoo in Vienna. I am definitely going to stick with 3-0 North Carolina as I think that there really is no comparison between the zoos in this category. I guess I can understand maybe a few European zoo nerds going for 2-1 North Carolina because of the love of Vienna's historic elements and the fact that a lot of individuals don't like the 3-0 scorelines. That's fair enough, but there should honestly be no one voting for Vienna in this category because it's not even close. 'Ungulates and elephants' is a real strength of North Carolina Zoo.

I agree (to some extent) with most of the points you raise here. HOWEVER those three exhibits are quite literally all North Carolina has to offer... Because North Carolina has swathes of space they can make exhibits like they have done. However, I appreciate the effort that Vienna has gone to to make nice exhibits for their ungulates while firstly having to stick to a restricted budget, secondly having to stick to the restricted space available (it is in a royal park where land is worth a fortune) and thirdly not being able to knock down historical buildings (they are protected by the government) and instead having to incorporate them into the design.

In addition, space isn't everything. In a 40 acre exhibit, many of the animals will be in the same 10% for 80% of the time, meaning that in some cases, it doesn't really matter whether the exhibit is 40 acres or 5 acres...

 

[nczoofan]

I agree (to some extent) with most of the points you raise here. HOWEVER those three exhibits are quite literally all North Carolina has to offer... Because North Carolina has swathes of space they can make exhibits like they have done. However, I appreciate the effort that Vienna has gone to to make nice exhibits for their ungulates while firstly having to stick to a restricted budget, secondly having to stick to the restricted space available (it is in a royal park where land is worth a fortune) and thirdly not being able to knock down historical buildings (they are protected by the government) and instead having to incorporate them into the design.

In addition, space isn't everything. In a 40 acre exhibit, many of the animals will be in the same 10% for 80% of the time, meaning that in some cases, it doesn't really matter whether the exhibit is 40 acres or 5 acres...

Space is not everything, but this category is ungulates so it must weigh more. We all on this forum hopefully agree that elephants need more than the .9 acres of outdoor space they are given at Vienna. Other exhibits such as the 10,000 sq ft hippo exhibit and .49 acre giraffe exhibit are of marginal size at best. They are in no way spacious, for species that enjoy to roam.

I go to the NC Zoo regularly, so I actually see the animals moving around these massive spaces. Theirs nothing more enjoyable than seeing a herd of 20 Thompson gazelle, running 1/2 a mile across their yard, something that is not a common occurrence in the zoo world. Herds of this size are something the NC Zoo can do easily, yet cannot happen at most zoos I have seen. The animals use the space on their own and move as herds across it, especially in the rhino paddock. They don't just stand their as you seem to suggest.

 

[amur leopard]

These are the standout exhibits for ungulates, yet the giraffe/zebra exhibit and elk/bison exhibit should not be forgotten. Each is several acres in size. Overall the NC Zoo has huge ungulate exhibits for a smaller slate of species than Vienna. They do place animal welfare at the forefront, with innovative approaches to management. I'm gonna vote 3-0 for NC.

You haven't actually said anything about Vienna in this post...

Imo when you vote 3-0 for something, it cannot just be the case that the winning zoo is excellent in that particular area, it must also be the case that the losing zoo is poor.
And I think, rightly or wrongly, that Vienna is certainly not poor in ungulates - actually, its collection is better than that of North Carolina, and has some fantastic enclosures...
I feel that voting 3-0 against it is an insult to the effort that engineers, architects, landscape artists, historians and zoo managers have gone to work with the small space they have, incorporate historic buildings into modern enclosures and operate under a limited budget as well as to its history, quality and species count.

Another thing that I would like to point out is the conservation work that the zoo does. The Tiergarten contributes to many ungulate conservation programs, including:

• Lowland tapirs: the zoo is collaring vulnerable tapirs who are possibly in danger from deforestation, habitat loss and poaching and move them to safer areas. They also campaign in local communities against deforestation and have managed to largely turn the tide in the area they are working in.
• Sri Lankan elephants: the zoo is working hard to secure a future for a species the zoo doesn't even keep. They campaign in local communities to reduce the conflict between elephants and humans in the area, alleviating the tense situation.
• They also lead the way in the conservation efforts for Vietnamese sika deer, which are extinct in the wild.
  
• And many more...

I would like to hear more about NCZ's conservation..
I'll do a bit of research on it and come back to yall.

 

[nczoofan]

You haven't actually said anything about Vienna in this post...

Imo when you vote 3-0 for something, it cannot just be the case that the winning zoo is excellent in that particular area, it must also be the case that the losing zoo is poor.
And I think, rightly or wrongly, that Vienna is certainly not poor in ungulates - actually, its collection is better than that of North Carolina, and has some fantastic enclosures...
I feel that voting 3-0 against it is an insult to the effort that engineers, architects, landscape artists, historians and zoo managers have gone to work with the small space they have, incorporate historic buildings into modern enclosures and operate under a limited budget as well as to its history, quality and species count.

Another thing that I would like to point out is the conservation work that the zoo does. The Tiergarten contributes to many ungulate conservation programs, including:

• Lowland tapirs: the zoo is collaring vulnerable tapirs who are possibly in danger from deforestation, habitat loss and poaching and move them to safer areas. They also campaign in local communities against deforestation and have managed to largely turn the tide in the area they are working in.
• Sri Lankan elephants: the zoo is working hard to secure a future for a species the zoo doesn't even keep. They campaign in local communities to reduce the conflict between elephants and humans in the area, alleviating the tense situation.
• And many more...

I would like to hear more about NCZ's conservation..
I'll do a bit of research on it and come back to yall.

Please re-read my post and the follow up post I made. As many here have seen, I do not blanketly vote 3-0 for my home zoo. They lost reptiles, and I thought that was the right way to vote. They lost misc. mammals, and that again was the right way to vote.

My reasons have been laid out. A puny bull elephant exhibit and a very small herd exhibit. A giraffe exhibit that is tiny for an exhibit that was just renovated, and this goes on for a few other species. This is not to say all of their exhibits are bad, they are not. I am just not personally a fan of the postage stamp approach many older zoos take, needing every major animal despite their site not being large enough to support them. Hoofstock are the group where space matters more, as for many species enrichment can be more difficult and having grazing space as well as larger herds is generally preferable.

Lastly the NC Zoo does some great conservation work for ungulates. The zoos oldest international conservation project has been tracking elephants in Cameroon since 1998. This has been used as an early warning system of elephant-human conflict and has allowed scientists to better understand their habitat requirements. The zoo in another program partners with the WCS to protect Nigeria's last herd of bush elephants. They train rangers in the tech they have developed in Cameroon and also invest in anti-poaching activities that have resulted recently in 0 poached carcasses being found. Besides elephants, the zoo invests in Rhino and Giraffe conservation.

International Conservation | North Carolina Zoo

 

[amur leopard]

OK so the NCZ takes part in the following conservation efforts:

• African elephants: Basically does what Vienna does...
• Giraffes: tracks movements around the savanna and is trying to, by collaborating with a few other institutions, find the cure to a skin disease in giraffes.
• Rhinos: Not exactly sure what they do - the site only seems to mention a few minor in-situ projects and then their rhino births...

Which brings up another point; the rarity of the animals exhibited.

Vienna has 8 LCs, 3 NTs, 5 VUs, 1 EN, 1 CR and 1 EW
Meanwhile, NCZ has 5 LCs, 3 NTs, only 2 VUs, 1 EN and 1 CR

 

[TZDugong]

Which brings up another point; the rarity of the animals exhibited.

Vienna has 8 LCs, 3 NTs, 5 VUs, 1 EN, 1 CR and 1 EW
Meanwhile, NCZ has 5 LCs, 3 NTs, only 2 VUs, 1 EN and 1 CR

I’m not sure what this is supposed to prove...

Yes Vienna has 3 more vulnerable species, but they also have 3 more least concern species as well. Vienna has a larger species list so it makes sense that they’ll have more vulnerable and endangered species. However, I don’t see how more endangered species in any way makes up for the gigantic difference in exhibit quality.

I honestly cannot see how anyone can give Vienna the win if they take exhibitory into account, Vienna has some good exhibits (and some bad ones), but every single exhibit at North Carolina is tremendous.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I honestly cannot see how anyone can give Vienna the win if they take exhibitory into account, Vienna has some good exhibits (and some bad ones), but every single exhibit at North Carolina is tremendous.

The argument at hand isn't really whether North Carolina or Vienna should win this round - as the former pretty solidly seems to merit that accolade - but rather whether Vienna deserves no credit whatsoever. Some of you - including yourself, SL and NCZF - seem to hold this opinion, but I among others would tend to dispute this point for a start, I think that guesstimating exhibit size to precise acreage, and then repeating this estimate as a hard fact to use against Vienna, is unsound logic....... and out of all the old European city zoos, I think Vienna is one of the least worthy of being dismissed as a "postage stamp" collection.

 

[TZDugong]

The argument at hand isn't really whether North Carolina or Vienna should win this round - as the former pretty solidly seems to merit that accolade - but rather whether Vienna deserves no credit whatsoever. Some of you - including yourself, SL and NCZF - seem to hold this opinion, but I among others would tend to dispute this point for a start, I think that guesstimating exhibit size to precise acreage, and then repeating this estimate as a hard fact to use against Vienna, is unsound logic....... and out of all the old European city zoos, I think Vienna is one of the least worthy of being dismissed as a "postage stamp" collection.

I wasn’t saying that Vienna didn’t deserve any credit, what I meant was that I cannot see how someone could vote 2-1 Vienna. I can understand someone voting 2-1 North Carolina. And I don’t think the acreage sizes are estimations, but regardless you can’t deny that NC’s exhibits are massive. Postage stamp or not, the Elephant and some other exhibits are undoubtedly small, I understand Vienna is a city zoo, but that doesn’t mean it’s exempt from exhibit size criticisms.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I wasn’t saying that Vienna didn’t deserve any credit, what I meant was that I cannot see how someone could vote 2-1 Vienna.

I was referring to the fact you've voted 3-0 to NCZ, and remarking that this is the question most of the voting in this round seems to be revolving around, rather than suggesting this was your argument in the quoted post

As for my comment about exhibit sizes at Vienna being guesstimated out of thin air:

The outdoor elephant exhibit at Vienna measures .92 acres if generous, including the moats and such. The bull exhibit makes up .22 acres of this.

These sound remarkably specific considering I can't find them published anywhere

 

[TZDugong]

I was referring to the fact you've voted 3-0 to NCZ, and remarking that this is the question most of the voting in this round seems to be revolving around, rather than suggesting this was your argument in the quoted post

As for my comment about exhibit sizes at Vienna being guesstimated out of thin air:



These sound remarkably specific considering I can't find them published anywhere

Ah okay, I thought you were referring to exhibit sizes at North Carolina.

Do you know how large the entire Vienna Zoo is? Just curious.