Red Deer are present in US collections, however I cannot confirm they are pure.
Zoos in Europe vs USA
- Thread starter Arizona Docent
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Well, that's too bad, as they illustrate my argumention all too well. The current standards of reptile husbandry in European zoos differ considerably from country to country; you can find exhibits in Bulgaria, Italy, Spain or Slovakia that are comparable to the horrible ones in American roadside zoos. And some others that truly outshine those in the US. Unfortunately, the more you learn more about reptiles and their requirements, the more you become (rather painfully) aware that even major zoos that pride themselves with their great reptile collections tend to keep and showcase their reptiles inadequately - multi-million dollar houses or not. May it be obesity due to overfeeding (Boelen's pythons at SDZ, Aruba rattlesnakes in several collections), stressful display arrangements (bushmasters or river jacks are no fans of bright lights; tomistomas prefer to dwell in muddy water; aggressive males in several Chelonian species should not have constant access to females etc, etc....), inadequate humidity, bedding, enclosure sizes & structures, mixed species exhibits, feeding & water supply (a big controversial topic among Chameleon keepers!) - the more you know, the more issues you see (also in European zoos). When I was younger, I used to marvel at the variety of displayed species both before and behind the scenes. The more I learn, the more I realize how some of these animals suffer silently. Just think of Cincinnati's reptile house; that's not how a modern zoo should showcase crocodilians. There is a different cultural understanding of what good husbandry should be like at play; take the husbandry of snakes in relatively small and bare boxes, the so-called racks, as an example. While rack systems are often the norm in reptile husbandry in the US (and Australia), they're quite a controversial subject within the European reptile keeper community, just as morph breeding or the deliberate hybridisation of reptile species.
What I miss in American zoos are naturalistic outdoor exhibits for local reptile species in a similar vein like the ones in Innsbruck or Nockalm. The only comparable examples that come to my mind are the ADM, Audubon Zoo's swamp exhibit and a few crocodilian exhibits. Any really good & naturalistic outdoor exhibits in American zoos for rattlesnakes, chuckwallas, collared lizards, gopher tortoises, box turtles, softshell turtles etc. that I should be aware of?
As mentioned several times before in other threads: it depends on the species and locality. While the American market has access to some lovely animals that Europeans can only dream of (I always wanted to have a truly blackish male Crotalus cerberus - nearly impossible to get in Europe), there are other species (like the Eurasian Vipera clade) that Americans are envious of.
Aside from reptiles and birds of prey, I can think of two American (as in "New World") ungulates that are more common in European zoos than in (North) American ones: the Vicuña and the Rocky Mountain goat. Now please explain that with local proximity!
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Toledo has a nice outdoor pond with lots of native turtle species (including softshells).
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
Not directly, no - but I would guess that major donations to museums in the UK are pretty thin of the ground too. Some solicit 'donations' from the visiting public, but from what is visible to the general visitor this produces only a tiny part of their operating requirements. The major difference is that most city and National museums in the UK are funded out of public budget and enjoy very different tax advantages; whereas most Zoos are subjected to pretty punitive levels of taxation.
Thanks, but is it also nice for all the turtles kept within? Does it live up to the husbandry standards of all specimens? Including those species that do not appreciate to be kept together with lots of other species? That's the kind of things I think about when looking at an reptile exhibit.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
Generally this does not happen in the UK. All our development has to be from commercially sourced funds, or those generated from our visitor income after all local and National taxes have been deducted first. We are not able to claim tax relief either on anything new - ie a 'betterment'. All such development is fully taxed. Conversations with colleagues in smaller American zoos express astonishment, and doubt that they could survive under such a system. This major difference should always be born in mind when making comparisons...
I don't know enough about turtle husbandry to say for sure.
Unnecessary species mixes are a particular annoyance for me (in general, not only for reptiles). I know that in many cases the animals can live together just fine and sometimes even enrich each other's life. But every species you add means an extra layer of complexity in your husbandry, as you need to optimise the enclosure for multiple species with different needs. I simply don't understand why some zoos have the urge to stick a dozen or more species in the same tank. What's the additional value of that? I think that having one (or maybe two) species in an enclosure that is made specifically for them makes for a far more elegant enclosure. It also makes it easier to focus a visitor's attention on a single species you want to promote.
That's at least my experience in European zoos. Are there differences in the way that American and European zoos handle mixed species exhibits (in general but specifically in reptiles)?
That always brings me to the idea that for some people anything non-mammal is considered less worthy. I was struck multiple times by the disinterest some zoo people show when it comes to inadequate husbandry of even die-offs of non-mammals.
No idea, I just keep hearing that they are around. I think somewhere in Texas has them still. I did forget about fallow deer, though I did say known pedigree Red Deer. I am aware that private keepers and roadside zoos can have Red Deer but afaik none of these animals are a known subspecies or are even confirmed pure. I don't know of any major or even AZA zoos with these animals either.
Well, that's too bad, as they illustrate my argumention all too well. The current standards of reptile husbandry in European zoos differ considerably from country to country; you can find exhibits in Bulgaria, Italy, Spain or Slovakia that are comparable to the horrible ones in American roadside zoos. And some others that truly outshine those in the US. Unfortunately, the more you learn more about reptiles and their requirements, the more you become (rather painfully) aware that even major zoos that pride themselves with their great reptile collections tend to keep and showcase their reptiles inadequately - multi-million dollar houses or not. May it be obesity due to overfeeding (Boelen's pythons at SDZ, Aruba rattlesnakes in several collections), stressful display arrangements (bushmasters or river jacks are no fans of bright lights; tomistomas prefer to dwell in muddy water; aggressive males in several Chelonian species should not have constant access to females etc, etc....), inadequate humidity, bedding, enclosure sizes & structures, mixed species exhibits, feeding & water supply (a big controversial topic among Chameleon keepers!) - the more you know, the more issues you see (also in European zoos). When I was younger, I used to marvel at the variety of displayed species both before and behind the scenes. The more I learn, the more I realize how some of these animals suffer silently. Just think of Cincinnati's reptile house; that's not how a modern zoo should showcase crocodilians. There is a different cultural understanding of what good husbandry should be like at play; take the husbandry of snakes in relatively small and bare boxes, the so-called racks, as an example. While rack systems are often the norm in reptile husbandry in the US (and Australia), they're quite a controversial subject within the European reptile keeper community, just as morph breeding or the deliberate hybridisation of reptile species.
What I miss in American zoos are naturalistic outdoor exhibits for local reptile species in a similar vein like the ones in Innsbruck or Nockalm. The only comparable examples that come to my mind are the ADM, Audubon Zoo's swamp exhibit and a few crocodilian exhibits. Any really good & naturalistic outdoor exhibits in American zoos for rattlesnakes, chuckwallas, collared lizards, gopher tortoises, box turtles, softshell turtles etc. that I should be aware of?
As mentioned several times before in other threads: it depends on the species and locality. While the American market has access to some lovely animals that Europeans can only dream of (I always wanted to have a truly blackish male Crotalus cerberus - nearly impossible to get in Europe), there are other species (like the Eurasian Vipera clade) that Americans are envious of.
Aside from reptiles and birds of prey, I can think of two American (as in "New World") ungulates that are more common in European zoos than in (North) American ones: the Vicuña and the Rocky Mountain goat. Now please explain that with local proximity!
I can totally see your points here being true and have often thought about these things myself while visiting zoos (though obviously I'm not expert on herp care), my point is simply that I've personally never seen the large difference in husbandry/exhibit quality between the two continents (unfortunately). I have even seen a few not to be named European zoos using the snake racks-- which I also agree are not very good. As you said, it happens on both sides of the Atlantic. I've never really liked Cincinnati's reptile house in the slightest anyhow.
I suppose I should clarify my initial statement and say that collection-wise the US dominates with herps, a statement I still stand by. Of course Europe has many, many more European/Caucasian/Turkish vipers than we do for obvious reasons, but there are still a good few taxa over here. LA, San Antonio, Dallas, and St. Louis in particular somewhat specialize in keeping snakes from these regions. Having just checked my lifelist, I've actually seen 8 species of these vipers in American zoos (all between LA, San Antonio, and Dallas tbf) vs only 3 species in Europe (which tells me I need to visit some Ukraine zoos).
As far as outdoor herp exhibits in the US go, I'll definitely agree that they aren't too common and Europe does tend to do them better for native species. Aside from turtle ponds and crocodiles, San Diego and LA both have a couple excellent outdoor displays. ASDM-- which I think is what you meant by 'ADM'-- also has some pretty good and numerous enclosures, though tbh most aren't very memorable and just reminded me of indoor displays placed outdoors. Outdoor giant tortoise (including sulcata here) yards are probably the most common outdoor herp enclosures after maybe alligators and are pretty mixed in terms of quality. Philadelphia, Oklahoma, Gladys Porter, and Riverbanks in particular had great giant tortoise yards from what I remember. Riverbanks in particular I remember having been surprised by their large complex of excellent outdoor tortoise yards for a variety of species.
If we're counting all of the Americas, then Dall Sheep and Caribou I'm going to assume are more common in Canada as they range from rare to near nonexistent in US zoos. The large absence of native caprine species comes for the AZA's lack of interest in caprines. In general, this is a group that has received little love in the last few decades over here and the only North American species which is promoted is the nelsoni Bighorn Sheep, which is more or less restricted to the Southwest. Muskox is another NA ungulate I can think of which is fairly common in European zoos yet is found in, I think, one US zoo. I don't know how common they are in Canada, though.
~Thylo
I think the biggest issue regarding the lack of native caprines is they seem to be unable to cope with warm temperatures. The zoos keeping them are mostly in the Northwest, in areas that stay cool year round. Point Defiance, Northwest Trek, and Oregon Zoo namely. Being as they are not likely to jump in water like a Polar Bear, and not small enough to provide an easy cool house like Arctic Fox, I don't think they will ever become widespread. Also Mountain Goat and Dall Sheep live pretty much entirely in regions where they never enter rehab facilities like so many of our other natives. Similar with Musk Ox, although the ox is farmed for its wool.
I can't think of many zoos with Bighorn Sheep either... only SDZ Safari Park and the ASDM coming to mind at present. I think the species is just unpopular, their profile on AZA Ungulates lists only 5 AZA holders + 2 non-AZA.
Far as Canadian holders, Caribou is fairly common. Greater Vancouver has Mountain Goat and Musk Ox. Apparently Calgary holds four native caprines: Bighorn, Dall, Mountain Goat, and Musk Ox.
Desert bighorn sheep I know exist at Arizona Sonora Desert Museum, Phoenix Zoo, The Living Desert, Los Angeles Zoo, San Diego Safari Park. There may be others, but these are the places I have personally seen them. The AZA-accredited Fossil Rim holds a large herd of red deer, though I know nothing of their subspecies status or purity. I think musk ox is in at least four US zoos: Point Defiance, Minnesota Zoo, Alaska Wildlife Conservation Center, Alaska Zoo. The real tragedy when it comes to caprines is the demise of sheep and goat mountain at San Diego Safari Park when they did away with the monorail. Also sad to see the blue sheep herd at San Diego Zoo disappear (they used to be next to snow leopards, their main predator).
Yeah they're not common but they are the only native caprine with an AZA program. I think the issue with them, along with the Peninsular Pronghorn, is that they do not do well outside of the Southwest. Roger Williams' current masterplan includes Desert Bighorn Sheep but I have my doubts that they'll ever get more or that they'll have success with them for this reason.
In general I would say non-caprine ungulates is an area that the US excels in more than Europe, if you could believe that...
~Thylo
Milwaukee had a few a few years ago, but they are gone now.
That probably is because of European falconry tradition.
I have heard both of those species do not tolerate humidity well, which does make them ill-suited for a large chunk of the US...
Both Innsbruck and Bern have excellent outdoor reptile enclosures for native herps. Not huge or extensive, but very appropriate for their inhabitants and very nicely designed and attractive for the humans.
Out Of Africa (central Arizona) has some extensive outdoor snake and lizard exhibits.
Well, that's quite a step down in tone in comparison to the previous rather cocky and provocative "wipe the floor".
Nevertheless, thanks for your obligingness. Diversity is all great if it's not to the disadvantage of the animals.Going to the Ukraine for Vipera sp. (or Macrovipera, Montivipera etc.) might not bring the wished result; better visit some German, Dutch or Swiss keepers.
Are they really that excellent for the inhabitants - or is the local warm climate their main advantage? Speaking of warm and sunny climate: why some zoos in the South do not take more advantage of this and give more reptiles access to outdoor exhibits is probably a topic in itself.
I remember seeing bighorn sheep in some wildlife parks in the Midwest - but that was a couple of years ago.
Well, that's quite a step down in tone in comparison to the previous rather cocky and provocative "wipe the floor".
Going to the Ukraine for Vipera sp. (or Macrovipera, Montivipera etc.) might not bring the wished result; better visit some German, Dutch or Swiss keepers.
Are they really that excellent for the inhabitants - or is the local warm climate their main advantage? Speaking of warm and sunny climate: why some zoos in the South do not take more advantage of this and give more reptiles access to outdoor exhibits is probably a topic in itself.
I remember seeing bighorn sheep in some wildlife parks in the Midwest - but that was a couple of years ago.
Well I still would say that we do wipe the floor when it comes to diversity and large scale reptile houses
But I do agree with you that that's certainly not everything and husbandry does come first. I also will concede that Europe does outdoor exhibits better. I'm sure some keepers in quite a few places in both the US and Europe would be able to show me more than a few fantastic things, though I'm afraid I'm unlikely to be invited into any of their homes Well certainly the climate will be part of it, no? But they are very well furnished and naturalistic for the environments they're attempting to recreate. I couldn't find a photo of LA's enclosure but below are a few for SDZ's:
Elephant Odyssey - Reptile and Amphibian Exhibit - ZooChat
Elephant Odyssey - Reptile and Amphibian Exhibit - ZooChat
Elephant Odyssey - Reptile and Amphibian Exhibit - ZooChat
If that's not good for native lizards and turtles I'm not really what could be considered such.
There are still zoos around that keep the nominate form of Bighorn Sheep, which I think are more tolerant of other conditions.
~Thylo
Google Image Result for https://media2.giphy.com/media/RGFL2W7ZJvoM8/giphy.gif ^^
Regarding the SDZ example: it looks to be professionaly made and it's great that this was built, but it's hard to judge it fairly and honestly based on a few photos. The list of species kept together, however, reminds me of the points and observations Mr. Zootycoon made above.