ZooChat Cup Group F: Bronx vs Zurich

[Coelacanth18]

I respectfully disagree, I'd much rather see diurnal (or crepuscular) species displayed in an ootdoor exhibit. And when it's something the size of a fossa (let alone a leopard ) then I personally feel it's a bit inadequate.

Would you mind explaining your logic behind this wish? Why you think it's inadequate for species the size of a fossa, and why nocturnal animals are then held to a different standard?

(Also worth noting: fossa are not exclusively diurnal, they hunt by day and night.)

 

[Chlidonias]

I'd imagine that any species that is native to a dense forested area would probably be more suited for a darker (maybe shaded if the better term?) enclosure than kept in open sunlight. I don't know if there's any proof for that, especially since rainforest animals kept in sunnier enclosures seem to do just fine for the most part, but my main point is that I don't think an enclosure is automatically worse just because it's indoors.

No, my point was that Fossas are cathemeral (not nocturnal) and they live in all forest habitats on Madagascar. They aren't blanket "rainforest animals" or dwellers of "dense forested areas" - they live also in spiny forest, dry forest, etc. Exactly the same habitats as species such as Ring-tailed Lemurs and Sifakas which one would not argue should be kept in darkened enclosures "because they live in forest".

 

[lintworm]

I'd imagine that any species that is native to a dense forested area would probably be more suited for a darker (maybe shaded if the better term?) enclosure than kept in open sunlight. I don't know if there's any proof for that, especially since rainforest animals kept in sunnier enclosures seem to do just fine for the most part, but my main point is that I don't think an enclosure is automatically worse just because it's indoors.

~Thylo

Both species also live in decidious forests and Ring-tailed vontsira also enter farmland, so they get plenty of direct sunlight.

 

[Vision]

Thanks @antonmuster for the excellent overview! I had already voted 2-1 for Zurich, but those pictures only reinforce my perspective further. I was impressed by Bronx's carnivore exhibits, but not blown away by them - and Zurich's exhibits definitely look like they belong in that second category!

 

[Brum]

Would you mind explaining your logic behind this wish? Why you think it's inadequate for species the size of a fossa, and why nocturnal animals are then held to a different standard?

I've never seen a fossa in a nocturnal exhibit, and on most occasions the fossa has been active. I'm against anything large and active being kept solely indoors but with certain species (which aren't carnivores) I see the need as you'd never see them i.e. small rodents, lorises, sugar gliders etc. But when you've got something as large and active as a fossa (or a civet, or a genet, or a cat) which will display well outside then I think it should be outside.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

No, my point was that Fossas are cathemeral (not nocturnal) and they live in all forest habitats on Madagascar. They aren't blanket "rainforest animals" or dwellers of "dense forested areas" - they live also in spiny forest, dry forest, etc. Exactly the same habitats as species such as Ring-tailed Lemurs and Sifakas which one would not argue should be kept in darkened enclosures "because they live in forest".

Both species also live in decidious forests and Ring-tailed vontsira also enter farmland, so they get plenty of direct sunlight.

Well lesson learned there then, thanks!

The Fossa enclosure at Bronx is not a nocturnal habitat, though, which is why I suggested the use of the term 'shaded' as maybe being better. Basically the lighting seems to replicate being on a forest floor with the sunlight partially blocked out by tree cover. The vontsira and lemur enclosures in that building all have glass ceilings so the animals still get direct sunlight.

~Thylo

 

[nczoofan]

Well lesson learned there then, thanks!

The Fossa enclosure at Bronx is not a nocturnal habitat, though, which is why I suggested the use of the term 'shaded' as maybe being better. Basically the lighting seems to replicate being on a forest floor with the sunlight partially blocked out by tree cover. The vontsira and lemur enclosures in that building all have glass ceilings so the animals still get direct sunlight.

~Thylo

I think its better to include a picture of the mentioned exhibit.

Here is a pic from the gallery of the Fossa exhibit:

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Honestly I can't say I'm not on the verge of switching over to Zurich here myself, as their enclosures are truly fantastic and they have some very cool taxa! Does anyone have any information on the zoo's work with carnivores outside of the zoo grounds?

As far as Bronx goes, they have extensive conservation programs for pretty much any carnivore one can think of. They have specific programs for all five Big Cats across their native ranges (including West African Lion populations, both African and Asian Leopards, and Snow Leopards in the Middle East), Cheetahs in Africa and Iran, Cougars in North and South America, lynx in Asia and North America, Andean Mountain Cats, Euplerids in Madagascar, Wolverines, Fishers, Giant Otters, Grey Wolves in Asia and North America, African Wild Dogs, Dholes, Maned Wolves, foxes including Arctic and Andean, bears including Brown in Asia (including the Middle East) and North America, Polar and Andean, Southern Elephant Seals, Walrus and other Arctic pinnipeds, and many other carnivores not listed as having specific programs for but definitely still worked with. I saw references to Sun Bear, both black bears, Sea Otter, Malabar Civet, and Asian mongoose conservation while looking for the above for instance. There is also the fact that the zoo has been able to provide a home for various carnivores injured or orphaned in the wild that could not survive on their own including the aforementioned Brown Bears and Cougars as well as their California Sea Lions, their Snow Leopard "Leo" from Pakistan, and I think their Western Spotted Skunks were wild rescues from Idaho as well.

~Thylo

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I think its better to include a picture of the mentioned exhibit.

Here is a pic from the gallery of the Fossa exhibit:

The issue is the photos always make this look significantly smaller than it is, as they seem to with the new Dhole enclosure as well. This enclosure goes back further than the photo suggests and also dips down below view towards the back. The enclosure also continues to the left and right more than shown here, and there are some additional climbing opportunities to the right. What's interesting is this photo does show natural sunlight shining in, so maybe they've limited the animals' access to that or maybe have the amount of lighting change during the day? Either way, whatever they do seems to work because I remember the Fossas used to sleep all day but for the past couple years now have been extremely active on every visit of mine (well, as active as two older animals can be).

~Thylo

 

[Coelacanth18]

I've never seen a fossa in a nocturnal exhibit, and on most occasions the fossa has been active. I'm against anything large and active being kept solely indoors but with certain species (which aren't carnivores) I see the need as you'd never see them i.e. small rodents, lorises, sugar gliders etc. But when you've got something as large and active as a fossa (or a civet, or a genet, or a cat) which will display well outside then I think it should be outside.

I appreciate the response, but I still don't understand the rationale. Is it a space issue? An indoor enclosure is not necessarily smaller than an outdoor enclosure.

One advantage that I can think of here is that the fossa at Bronx can be seen year-round in its enclosure, while if it was outside it would not tolerate the cold winter conditions.

 

[Brum]

I appreciate the response, but I still don't understand the rationale. Is it a space issue? An indoor enclosure is not necessarily smaller than an outdoor enclosure.

It's not a space issue, I just don't like to see larger species with access to fresh air. As an example, I love seeing Aye-ayes but I've only ever seen them displayed in nocturnal houses and exhibits. For an intelligent and active primate to be shut inside a windowless box makes me feel uncomfortable, and this rolls out to carnivores as well, I get an uncomfortable feeling that (stupid and anthropomorphizing as it sounds) that they're missing out on life without fresh air or the chance to encounter whatever native creatures and unusual smells that they may come into contact with outside.

One advantage that I can think of here is that the fossa at Bronx can be seen year-round in its enclosure, while if it was outside it would not tolerate the cold winter conditions.

I think fossa are hardier than you assume, I've seen photos of them outside in snow before.