Bede's Zoo , Zoo Grapevine / IZN article

Hexaprotodon

Hexaprotodon

Well-Known Member
I read an excellent article in Zoo Grapevine / IZN about Bede's Zoo in East Sussex. Some fantastic photographs of some of the species there too. Lucky kids - I wish we had a Zoo at my school back in the day!

The article concentrated on the bird and mammal collection, but there is a nice collection of reptiles, amphibians and fish there as well. Plus a few inverts. Not open to the public though - very much a private collection.
 
Am I the only one who finds this somewhat distasteful? This school has a zoo while the state sector is crumbling with some schools resorting to crowdfunding and wish lists to pay for basic supplies, parents having to make donations and teachers buying supplies with their own money.

The private education system entrenches inequality and means that those in positions of wealth and power have no stake in the society they govern (I use the term loosely) and no concern for those impacted by their political and ideological choices.

Sorry if I don’t share your glee but for me it just highlights the obscene levels of inequality present in the UK today.
 
Shirokuma said:
Am I the only one who finds this somewhat distasteful? This school has a zoo while the state sector is crumbling with some schools resorting to crowdfunding and wish lists to pay for basic supplies, parents having to make donations and teachers buying supplies with their own money.

The private education system entrenches inequality and means that those in positions of wealth and power have no stake in the society they govern (I use the term loosely) and no concern for those impacted by their political and ideological choices.
Click to expand...

I share your feelings about the private education system wholeheartedly, coming as I do from a struggling working class background, but nonetheless feel that the existence of this zoo is still a net positive - exposure to the diverse wonders of nature will hopefully give the next generation of the powerful and privileged a little more understanding and feeling for this aspect of the world.

Certainly couldn't give them any less.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
I share your feelings about the private education system wholeheartedly, coming as I do from a struggling working class background, but nonetheless feel that the existence of this zoo is still a net positive - exposure to the diverse wonders of nature will hopefully give the next generation of the powerful and privileged a little more understanding and feeling for this aspect of the world.

Certainly couldn't give them any less.
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The article emphasises that the zoo does a lot of outreach work with the local community, and that the school takes a proportion of scholarship students.
 
Shirokuma said:
Am I the only one who finds this somewhat distasteful? This school has a zoo while the state sector is crumbling with some schools resorting to crowdfunding and wish lists to pay for basic supplies, parents having to make donations and teachers buying supplies with their own money.

The private education system entrenches inequality and means that those in positions of wealth and power have no stake in the society they govern (I use the term loosely) and no concern for those impacted by their political and ideological choices.

Sorry if I don’t share your glee but for me it just highlights the obscene levels of inequality present in the UK today.
Click to expand...
As someone who is very closely connected with this enterprise, it behoves me to respond to these points....

While I disagree with @Shirokuma ’s analysis, I do, of course, respect his point of view, which is one shared by many. I am also very conscious of the fact that one should not discuss politics or religion with one’s friends. I am also aware that many here won’t have any interest at all in the detail of the British education system. So, keeping it brief....

In this particular case, I would argue that the school has a positive impact on society. Generous support is given to a very large number of pupils whose families are by no means wealthy, to enable them to attend the school. This includes “looked after” children - children in care - whose life chances are significantly improved by the opportunities they receive here. We also work in partnership with a number of local schools, so, for example, our local village primary school is able to benefit from shared resources.

However, I am pretty sure that such arguments will not appease @Shirokuma or @TeaLovingDave, who have an ideological issue with the place of such schools on society. Of course, this is their prerogative! I do see things differently, and I do believe in choice: I cannot afford to stay in very expensive hotels, or pay for very expensive health care, or live in a very expensive house, but I’m not sure that I would take issue with those who can afford it, and who choose to do so. And I’m not sure how far the argument against having the right to choose to pay for an education filters down: where does this leave, for example, driving schools? Or private tutors? Or the language schools that are a major part of the summer economy along the south coast of England?

TeaLovingDave said:
exposure to the diverse wonders of nature will hopefully give the next generation of the powerful and privileged a little more understanding and feeling for this aspect of the world. Certainly couldn't give them any less.
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I appreciate where my good friend @TeaLovingDave is coming from here, but I do take issue with his somewhat sweeping generalisations! Not all independent schools are Eton and Harrow, and not all students at those schools are mini versions of Boris Johnson or David Cameron!

Enough from me. I suspect that a forum dedicated to zoos is not the place to discuss the ways in which British society is either damaged or improved by the presence of a school such as this. If anyone wants to discuss the animals maintained here, I would be delighted to do so....
 
sooty mangabey said:
I do believe in choice: I cannot afford to stay in very expensive hotels, or pay for very expensive health care, or live in a very expensive house, but I’m not sure that I would take issue with those who can afford it, and who choose to do so.
Click to expand...

I also believe in choice - and welcome the principle of private schools and private hospitals and private zoos and private business.... the wall came down in 1989, and must not be re-built.
 
Hexaprotodon said:
In terms of species - the selection of African birds is probably most noteworthy -

1.1 Violet Turaco, 2.1 Grey Hornbill, 3.2 Lemon Dove, 1.1 Bruce’s Green Pigeon, 1.1 Blacksmith Plover, 1.1 Erckel’s Francolin, 1.0 Yellow Throated Francolin and 1.0 White Headed Barbet. All posted on ZIMS.
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And 2.0 Northern White-faced Owls as well. Nine African species, with all but one that have been here long enough and are not kept in single sex groups having bred - only the plovers have let us down: several clutches of eggs but nothing fertile yet...
 
sooty mangabey said:
However, I am pretty sure that such arguments will not appease @Shirokuma or @TeaLovingDave, who have an ideological issue with the place of such schools on society.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised - on the scale of "things that bother me about the level of inequality in society" it's still pretty low down :) as you know, I'm really pretty easy going!

sooty mangabey said:
I appreciate where my good friend @TeaLovingDave is coming from here, but I do take issue with his somewhat sweeping generalisations! Not all independent schools are Eton and Harrow, and not all students at those schools are mini versions of Boris Johnson or David Cameron!
Click to expand...

Indeed, the generalisations were somewhat-deliberate hyperbole intended to get my point across to @Shirokuma :p given the level of genuine anger he seems to feel on the matter.

sooty mangabey said:
I do see things differently, and I do believe in choice: I cannot afford to stay in very expensive hotels, or pay for very expensive health care, or live in a very expensive house, but I’m not sure that I would take issue with those who can afford it, and who choose to do so.
Click to expand...

Andrew Swales said:
I also believe in choice - and welcome the principle of private schools and private hospitals and private zoos and private business.... the wall came down in 1989, and must not be re-built.
Click to expand...

I'm entirely in favour of such things too, to be honest - my issue is more a matter of scale, and where the line between choice and conspicuous consumption lies :)

But enough of all of this - as sooty has very accurately noted this is neither the time nor the place for such discussions (which I generally prefer not to have anyway!) - back to the discussion of zoos!
 
Hexaprotodon said:
In terms of species - the selection of African birds is probably most noteworthy -

1.1 Violet Turaco, 2.1 Grey Hornbill, 3.2 Lemon Dove, 1.1 Bruce’s Green Pigeon, 1.1 Blacksmith Plover, 1.1 Erckel’s Francolin, 1.0 Yellow Throated Francolin and 1.0 White Headed Barbet. All posted on ZIMS.
Click to expand...

sooty mangabey said:
And 2.0 Northern White-faced Owls as well. Nine African species, with all but one that have been here long enough and are not kept in single sex groups having bred - only the plovers have let us down: several clutches of eggs but nothing fertile yet...
Click to expand...

I imagine that to some extent the excellent set of mixed aviaries for small African birds at Plzen within the hippo house served as a little bit of an inspiration for the sorts of species that could be kept :) and possibly might give some ideas for other species that could work within the collection too!
 
I don’t accept that this is neither the time or place for a discussion about private schools as this is a thread about a zoo in a private school. Nonetheless I’m not keen on arguing much further having made my point. If people have their views I don’t expect to be able to change them here. But I will address a couple of points raised by others.

I find the comparison with luxury hotels a poor one. Hotels are just that, a luxury. Schools are an absolute necessity and as I said, the existence and prominence of the private educational system in the UK has a direct negative effect on the state system. No one is disadvantaged by the existence of luxury hotels as a general concept. If I stay in a youth hostel or a basic hotel I am making a choice. But that basic hotel won’t be missing out on cleaning products or basic supplies as a direct result of the political decisions of those who stay at the luxury hotel.

If the UK had uniformly excellent and well funded schools, if the makeup of public institutions and business reflected the actual makeup of the country I would be less concerned. But private schools are the tip of an iceberg of inequality where those in power have no concern for public services because they simply don’t use them.

The UK is a desperately unequal society, one that is getting more unequal. And yes, this makes me angry. This isn’t a fact of life, it isn’t an inevitable aspect of the modern world, it is a political choice. Homelessness and poor or unaffordable housing, for example, is the direct result of political choices. And overcrowded state schools that can’t afford basic equipment are also a direct result of political choices.

Comparisons with state socialism of the Communist era are lazy and hysterical. You can believe passionately in social justice and a society based on something more elevated than dog eat dog capitalism and inherited privilege without calling for the Berlin Wall to be raised again. Anyone who knows about my relationship with Finland and Estonia for example will appreciate that.

For what it’s worth I regard the Soviet empire as evil and inhumane. I’m equally critical of some of the extremes of the Americans and regimes they supported during the Cold War period.

Coming back to Finland, it’s a great example of a more humane capitalist society where every school is a good school, where homelessness is almost eliminated and where private schools are unheard of. And they certainly haven’t had to become communists to achieve this. They are simply creating a society where opportunity and security should genuinely be open to all. It isn’t perfect, utopia doesn’t exist, but it’s still one of the most successful societies in the world and the UK with its enormous resources also has this potential.
 
Shirokuma said:
I don’t accept that this is neither the time or place for a discussion about private schools as this is a thread about a zoo in a private school. Nonetheless I’m not keen on arguing much further having made my point. If people have their views I don’t expect to be able to change them here. But I will address a couple of points raised by others.

I find the comparison with luxury hotels a poor one. Hotels are just that, a luxury. Schools are an absolute necessity and as I said, the existence and prominence of the private educational system in the UK has a direct negative effect on the state system. No one is disadvantaged by the existence of luxury hotels as a general concept. If I stay in a youth hostel or a basic hotel I am making a choice. But that basic hotel won’t be missing out on cleaning products or basic supplies as a direct result of the political decisions of those who stay at the luxury hotel.

If the UK had uniformly excellent and well funded schools, if the makeup of public institutions and business reflected the actual makeup of the country I would be less concerned. But private schools are the tip of an iceberg of inequality where those in power have no concern for public services because they simply don’t use them.

The UK is a desperately unequal society, one that is getting more unequal. And yes, this makes me angry. This isn’t a fact of life, it isn’t an inevitable aspect of the modern world, it is a political choice. Homelessness and poor or unaffordable housing, for example, is the direct result of political choices. And overcrowded state schools that can’t afford basic equipment are also a direct result of political choices.

Comparisons with state socialism of the Communist era are lazy and hysterical. You can believe passionately in social justice and a society based on something more elevated than dog eat dog capitalism and inherited privilege without calling for the Berlin Wall to be raised again. Anyone who knows about my relationship with Finland and Estonia for example will appreciate that.

For what it’s worth I regard the Soviet empire as evil and inhumane. I’m equally critical of some of the extremes of the Americans and regimes they supported during the Cold War period.

Coming back to Finland, it’s a great example of a more humane capitalist society where every school is a good school, where homelessness is almost eliminated and where private schools are unheard of. And they certainly haven’t had to become communists to achieve this. They are simply creating a society where opportunity and security should genuinely be open to all. It isn’t perfect, utopia doesn’t exist, but it’s still one of the most successful societies in the world and the UK with its enormous resources also has this potential.
Click to expand...
Again, I respect and sympathise with your points, and share most of your concerns about the financial constraints under which my colleagues in the state sector have to operate. I just don’t agree with your conclusion that the presence of independent schools in any way damages state schools. On a very simple level: if the state needed to educate the 7% currently educated privately, the pressure on stretched budgets would be even greater. And I don’t buy the argument that politicians need to have a personal stake in something to be able to be interested in change and betterment: I will hopefully never be homeless, for example, but can still care deeply about services for those who are.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
I imagine that to some extent the excellent set of mixed aviaries for small African birds at Plzen within the hippo house served as a little bit of an inspiration for the sorts of species that could be kept :) and possibly might give some ideas for other species that could work within the collection too!
Click to expand...
As someone who wholly empathises with Pilsen’s possibly rather old fashioned “stamp collection” mentality, this is a pleasing comparison! As with any collection, ours has come about in part because of what will work and in part because of what has been available.
 
Hexaprotodon said:
In terms of species - the selection of African birds is probably most noteworthy -

1.1 Violet Turaco, 2.1 Grey Hornbill, 3.2 Lemon Dove, 1.1 Bruce’s Green Pigeon, 1.1 Blacksmith Plover, 1.1 Erckel’s Francolin, 1.0 Yellow Throated Francolin and 1.0 White Headed Barbet. All posted on ZIMS.
Click to expand...
Can one see species lists on ZIMS?
 
Mammal wise - less interesting in many ways compared to the bird collection, but still a nice little collection -

1.1 European Polecat, 1.2 Kinkajou, 1.3 Slender Tailed Meerkat, 0.1 Tree Shrew, 1.0 African Hedgehog, 0.2 Ring Tailed Lemur, 0.4 Common Squirrel Monkey, 1.1 Common Marmoset, 1.0 Mongolian Gerbil, 1.1 Azara’s Agouti, 1.1.17 Hazel Dormice, 0.4 Siberian Chipmunk, 1.0 Domesticated Rabbit and 3.4 Domesticated Guinea Pig.

Harvest Mice will be returning to the collection in the spring and an enclosure is already prepared for them.
 
Shirokuma said:
I don’t accept that this is neither the time or place for a discussion about private schools as this is a thread about a zoo in a private school. Nonetheless I’m not keen on arguing much further having made my point. If people have their views I don’t expect to be able to change them here. But I will address a couple of points raised by others.

I find the comparison with luxury hotels a poor one. Hotels are just that, a luxury. Schools are an absolute necessity and as I said, the existence and prominence of the private educational system in the UK has a direct negative effect on the state system. No one is disadvantaged by the existence of luxury hotels as a general concept. If I stay in a youth hostel or a basic hotel I am making a choice. But that basic hotel won’t be missing out on cleaning products or basic supplies as a direct result of the political decisions of those who stay at the luxury hotel.

If the UK had uniformly excellent and well funded schools, if the makeup of public institutions and business reflected the actual makeup of the country I would be less concerned. But private schools are the tip of an iceberg of inequality where those in power have no concern for public services because they simply don’t use them.

The UK is a desperately unequal society, one that is getting more unequal. And yes, this makes me angry. This isn’t a fact of life, it isn’t an inevitable aspect of the modern world, it is a political choice. Homelessness and poor or unaffordable housing, for example, is the direct result of political choices. And overcrowded state schools that can’t afford basic equipment are also a direct result of political choices.

Comparisons with state socialism of the Communist era are lazy and hysterical. You can believe passionately in social justice and a society based on something more elevated than dog eat dog capitalism and inherited privilege without calling for the Berlin Wall to be raised again. Anyone who knows about my relationship with Finland and Estonia for example will appreciate that.

For what it’s worth I regard the Soviet empire as evil and inhumane. I’m equally critical of some of the extremes of the Americans and regimes they supported during the Cold War period.

Coming back to Finland, it’s a great example of a more humane capitalist society where every school is a good school, where homelessness is almost eliminated and where private schools are unheard of. And they certainly haven’t had to become communists to achieve this. They are simply creating a society where opportunity and security should genuinely be open to all. It isn’t perfect, utopia doesn’t exist, but it’s still one of the most successful societies in the world and the UK with its enormous resources also has this potential.
Click to expand...

Almost all of this post is intentionally political and has nothing to do with the topic.
 
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