ZooChat Cup Group B2: Chester vs Taronga

[ThylacineAlive]

Almost all of islands doesn't count at Chester! For me Chesters only excellent exhibits in this category are for Fossa and tuatara. Most of the others are OK or good, but not enough for a point for me. I will not get into further arguments over this after last time!!

If by "almost all of islands" you mean Australia specifically then yes. They have many animals from Madagascar, New Guinea, and various assorted islands such as Rodrigues and Mauritius, arguably more variety than Taronga will have.

~Thylo

 

[amur leopard]

If by "almost all of islands" you mean Australia specifically then yes. They have many animals from Madagascar, New Guinea, and various assorted islands such as Rodrigues and Mauritius, arguably more variety than Taronga will have.

~Thylo

I assume he meant all of the Islands complex at Chester.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I assume he meant all of the Islands complex at Chester.

Ah, in which case he is correct then Only the tree-kangaroo/pademelon and cassowary enclosures will count fully, although there were some New Guinea birds in Monsoon Forest...

~Thylo

 

[pipaluk]

The reference was to the'*excellent islands exhibit ', very little there qualifies except an OK pademelon/tree kangaroo enclosure or imo a poor cassowary exhibit!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Besides, the Sulawesi exhibits wouldn’t have been discussed in this round anyway had Chester not drawn the relevant categories.

Very true, but if Chester does end up dropping out by a narrow margin the argument could readily be made that the Berlin/Chester vote margin would have been even wider had Sulawesi been permitted then, and that this would have materially affected the end result.

Time will tell.

 

[CGSwans]

If by "almost all of islands" you mean Australia specifically then yes. They have many animals from Madagascar, New Guinea, and various assorted islands such as Rodrigues and Mauritius, arguably more variety than Taronga will have.

~Thylo

I’ve been waiting for somebody to look down this path. A cursory glance at ZTL causes me to think this match shouldn’t be as cut and dried as it currently appears.

 

[pipaluk]

I’ve been waiting for somebody to look down this path. A cursory glance at ZTL causes me to think this match shouldn’t be as cut and dried as it currently appears.

I think overall this makes little difference but obviously others may and are choosing to look favourably on Chester

 

[CGSwans]

I think overall this makes little difference but obviously others may and are choosing to look favourably on Chester

Instead of dark mutterings of conspiracy, why don’t you a) ask people who don’t currently agree with you to explain their decision and b) try to use substantive arguments to convince them otherwise?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

but I don’t think it’s quite fair to Taronga to vary the categories a second time either.

Did the lack of Sulawesi and Lesser Sundaic taxa make much difference in the Taronga/Vienna round for Asia incidentally? Offhand I don't actually know if either of them have many species from these areas or not.

 

[CGSwans]

Did the lack of Sulawesi and Lesser Sundaic taxa make much difference in the Taronga/Vienna round for Asia? Offhand I don't know if either of them have many species from these areas or not.

None of the distinctly Sulawesi fauna is present in Australia, so I doubt it.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

If by "almost all of islands" you mean Australia specifically then yes. They have many animals from Madagascar, New Guinea, and various assorted islands such as Rodrigues and Mauritius, arguably more variety than Taronga will have.

~Thylo

I’ve been waiting for somebody to look down this path. A cursory glance at ZTL causes me to think this match shouldn’t be as cut and dried as it currently appears.

Yeah, I was going to make this point myself when I got home from work, which I now have though I alluded to it in my initial post in this thread. Will marshall my thoughts now.

 

[pipaluk]

Instead of dark mutterings of conspiracy, why don’t you a) ask people who don’t currently agree with you to explain their decision and b) try to use substantive arguments to convince them otherwise?

To be fair, I have very few people to convince at the moment, I never mentioned conspiracy theories though. I've already given Chester credit for 2 excellent exhibits in this category, but the others really aren't that good when it is so comfortably beaten on species that Chester deserves even a point. If people want to give Chester a sympathetic point I can't argue, but a win? Not for me under any circumstances, this isn't a contest on species
I will not post again for fear of being called aggressive again! But I am convinced this is an easy win for Taronga!

 

[CGSwans]

To be fair, I have very few people to convince at the moment, I never mentioned conspiracy theories though. I've already given Chester credit for 2 excellent exhibits in this category, but the others really aren't that good when it is so comfortably beaten on species that Chester deserves even a point. If people want to give Chester a sympathetic point I can't argue, but a win? Not for me under any circumstances, this isn't a contest on species

I was responding to the phrase ‘choosing to look favourably’ which implies that you think people aren’t voting fairly. I don’t think the debate has done anything near enough to make that a fair assumption (noting, btw, that I am one of the six people who has voted 2-1 for Chester).

I’m not sure that your assertion re: species counts is quite right, by the way.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I think overall this makes little difference but obviously others may and are choosing to look favourably on Chester

Again, it's not so much that but rather, as I said before, no one's given an argument in favor of Taronga.

To be fair, I have very few people to convince at the moment, I never mentioned conspiracy theories though. I've already given Chester credit for 2 excellent exhibits in this category, but the others really aren't that good when it is so comfortably beaten on species that Chester deserves even a point. If people want to give Chester a sympathetic point I can't argue, but a win? Not for me under any circumstances, this isn't a contest on species
I will not post again for fear of being called aggressive again! But I am convinced this is an easy win for Taronga!

How? Literally no one has said anything about how many species Taronga holds or what they are, which--again--is my point here. This is why it'd be easy for one to make the assumption that people are simply voting Taronga because it's an Australian zoo therefore it falls into reason that they'd house a larger collection of species than a foreign zoo in a match that includes Australian fauna. I am not saying that is definitely what people are doing, I'm saying that there is no other logical through-line to follow based on the discussion on this thread, which even includes various people saying they're voting tentatively for Taronga based on the thinking that Taronga's Australian list probably beats out anything Chester has to offer.

I was going to make a species list for Chester now, but I believe @TeaLovingDave making one. In the meantime, he are some more Chester enclosure photos:

Aye-Aye/Malagasy Giant Rat
Aye-Aye/Malagasy Giant Rat
Lemur walkthrough 261019 - ZooChat
Tree Kangaroo / Dusky Pademelon Exhibit - 25/05/2018 - ZooChat
Tree Kangaroo / Dusky Pademelon Exhibit - 25/05/2018 - ZooChat
Southern Cassowary, September 2016 - ZooChat
Islands Preview at Chester, 11/07/15 - ZooChat

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Not for me under any circumstances, this isn't a contest on species

If it is not a contest on species, then Taronga having significantly more Australian species should not be an automatic win

 

[pipaluk]

If it is not a contest on species, then Taronga having significantly more Australian species should not be an automatic win

Don't try to be clever again Dave! You know damn

If it is not a contest on species, then Taronga having significantly more Australian species should not be an automatic win

I'm going no further Dave you know I caught you out in another contest!! You are again choosing to pick wording to your advantage, you know I meant taronga smashes Chester on species which it clearly does! Please go back to your burrow!!

 

[CGSwans]

Alright, guys, there was a bit each way here but in the interests of my sanity and continued motivation to continue this project, can we please shift back to the substance?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

...taronga smashes Chester on species which it clearly does!

All negativity aside, if you know Taronga smashes Chester on species could you please enlighten the thread with said species lists you're going off of? The honest truth is I'm very likely to change my vote except I just don't know anything about the collection other than maybe three of the species they keep and that Chester has a better standard of exhibitry based off of the word of my friend who's been to both. I've read the Wikipedia list but seeing as we don't know how accurate that is I don't want to take it to heart.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Given the fact that the one solitary post which has actually bothered to cite a species at Taronga which has a bearing on the category actually cited a taxon which I believe is currently off-show once again (the last surviving long-beaked echidna), and this is almost certainly one of the species which is influencing the silent voters too, the following list *does* include offshow species, which I will label in italics. Moreover, although I reluctantly accept the ruling by CGSwans with regards to Sulawesi and Lesser Sundaic taxa being barred for the most part (though still disagreeing with it), I think that the biogeographic argument made elsewhere in favour of counting Komodo Dragon within this round IS valid and so will count this species within Australia, given the species originated here and the current range is relict. Species I am unsure of, whether for biogeographic reasons or because they represent introduced populations, are marked with an asterisk.

AUSTRALIA

Komodo Dragon (Varanus komodoensis)
Superb Fruit Dove (Ptilinopus superbus)

MOLUCCAS AND MELANESIA

Boelen's Python (Simalia boeleni)
Cinnamon Ground Dove (Gallicolumba rufigula)
Crocodile monitor (Varanus salvadorii)
Dusky Pademelon (Thylogale brunii)
Emerald Tree Skink (Lamprolepis smaragdina)
Gariau Forest Dragon (Hypsilurus magnus)
Goodfellow's Tree-kangaroo (Dendrolagus goodfellowi buergersi)
Green Tree Monitor (Varanus prasinus)
Mitchell's Lorikeet (Trichoglossus forsteni mitchellii)
Nicobar pigeon (Caloenas nicobarica)
Pied Imperial-Pigeon (Ducula bicolor)
Quince Monitor (Varanus melinus)
Southern cassowary (Casuarius casuarius)
Victoria crowned-pigeon (Goura victoria)
White-lipped Viper (Trimeresurus albolabris)
White-naped pheasant-pigeon (Otidiphaps aruensis)
Yellow-backed chattering lory (Lorius garrulus flavopalliatus)
Yellow-faced myna (Mino dumontii)

POLYNESIA AND MICRONESIA

Tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus)

INDIAN OCEAN

Grey-capped Emerald Dove (Chalcophaps indica) *
Pink Pigeon (Nesoenas mayeri)
Rodriguez flying fox (Pteropus rodricensis)

MADAGASCAR

Angulated Tortoise (Astrochelys yniphora)
Aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis)
Black Lemur (Eulemur macaco)
Blue-legged Mantella (Mantella expectata)
Crowned Lemur (Eulemur coronatus)
Cuvier's Madagascar Swift (Oplurus cuvieri)
Fossa (Cryptoprocta ferox)
Giant Jumping Rat (Hypogeomys antimena)
Golden Mantella (Mantella aurantiaca)
Grandidier’s Vontsira (Galidictis grandidieri)
Greater Hedgehog Tenrec (Setifer setosus)
Henkel's Leaf-tailed Gecko (Uroplatus henkeli)
Hottentot Teal (Spatula hottentota)
Lac Alaotra Bamboo Lemur (Hapalemur alaotrensis)
Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec (Echinops telfairi)
Madagascar Rain Frog (Scaphiophryne madagascariensis)
Northern Narrow-striped boky (Mungotictis decemlineata decemlineata)
Parson's chameleon (Calumma parsonii)
Pronk's day gecko (Phelsuma pronki)
Radiated Tortoise (Astrochelys radiata)
Madagascar fody (Foudia madagascariensis)
Gottlebe's Narrow-mouthed Frog (Scaphiophryne gottlebei)
Red ruffed lemur (Varecia rubra)
Red-bellied lemur (Eulemur rubriventer)
Ring-tailed lemur (Lemur catta)
Sambava tomato frog (Dyscophus guineti)
Southeastern girdled lizard (Zonosaurus maximus)
White-belted black-and-white ruffed lemur (Varecia variegata subcincta)
White-tailed antsangy (Brachytarsomys albicauda)

ATLANTIC ISLANDS

Bermuda Skink (Plestiodon longirostris)
Leach's anole (Anolis leachii) *

PACIFIC ISLANDS

Lavender Waxbill (Estrilda caerulescens) *
Socorro dove (Zenaida graysoni) *


----

I feel that these lists demonstrate rather nicely that even with the handicap of not being allowed to count species restricted to Sulawesi and the Lesser Sundas, and the collection plan having actively phased out almost all Australian species in recent years, Chester has a much more comprehensive offering where the category is concerned than Taronga does, despite the latter naturally having a LOT more Australian species!

I will next attempt to demonstrate that the exhibit quality at Chester is also worthy of more consideration than some people have given it thus far

 

[CGSwans]

GI think that the biogeographic argument made elsewhere in favour of counting Komodo Dragon within this round IS valid and so will count this species within Australia, given the species originated here and the current range is relict.

I didn't know that!