ZooChat Cup Group B2: Chester vs Taronga

[TeaLovingDave]

And now, before I retire for the night, a pair of questions for those backing Taronga

Yes, Taronga does have a significantly larger collection of Australian species than does Chester.... but:

a) How does the range and depth of the collection in other aspects of the "Islands" theme compare to that found at Chester?

b) How does the exhibit standards and quality compare to that found at Chester?

 

[Hix]

Then there's the afore-mentioned long-beaked echidna, which has been on display off and on over the years, but unfortunately always 'off' when I've been in Sydney! I'd be curious to know what value people place on Taronga having it, as my understanding (quite possibly wrong) is that it's essentially the last individual left over from the postage stamp collection mentality that Taronga maintained into the 1970s. @Hix - do you know more about their history at Taronga?

I have a vague recollection that Hallstrom may have supplied the first Long-beaked echidnas when he was stocking the zoo with Birds of Paradise and other New Guinea fauna in the 50's. I know from an annual report that the zoo received a pair in the 1978-79 financial year, and they were the first ones I had seen.

Due to their nocturnal habits they were only occasionally seen, even in the nocturnal house. When JR and his companion (can't remember her name) arrived in the early 90's they were put in an outdoor enclosure next to the Platypus House, and were pretty much never seen.I don't think I saw them until 1998 during NightZoo when I caught site of them feeding after the zoo had closed, and wrestled JR until some keeper could come and help me bag him.

Incidentally, I was at the zoo last week catching up friends and saw JR trundling around in the Noccy House. He's definitely on display at present.

And although I haven't given the zoo a thorough walkthrough for a while, what was on the Wikipedia page seems appears to be up-to-date, with the exception of the Lemur walkthrough, which now has five capybara brothers.



Hix

 

[amur leopard]

Taronga species list:

(Australian walkabout)
Red kangaroo
Tammar wallaby
Swamp wallaby
Agile wallaby
Red-necked wallaby
Emu
(Koala Walkabout)
Koala
(Platypus house)
Platypus
Common wombat
(Australian nightlife)
Tasmanian devil
Eastern quoll
Long-nosed potoroo
Yellow bellied glider
Plains rat
Spinifex hopping mouse
Barn owl
New Caledonian giant gecko
Red-tailed phascogale
Greater bilby
Long-nosed bandicoot
Brush-tailed bettong
Common ringtail possum
Squirrel glider
Feathertail glider
Greater stick-nest rat
Ghost bat
Tawny frogmouth
Diamond python
Long-beaked echidna
(Australian rainforest aviary)
Rainbow lorikeet
Musk lorikeet
Eclectus parrot
Australian king parrot
Double-eyed fig parrot
Paradise riflebird
Wonga pigeon
Topknot pigeon
Pacific emerald dove
Bornw cuckoo-dove
White-headed pigeon
Buff-banded rail
Black-breasted buttonquail
Regent bowerbird
Eastern whipbird
Black-faced monarch
Pacific koel
Crimson rosella
Superb fruit dove
Red-browed finch
Blue-faced parrotfinch
Noisy pitta
(Australian wetlands)
Black-necked stork
Little pied cormorant
Australian pelican
Brolga
Royal spoonbill
Pacific blak duck
Chestnut teal
Blue-billed duck
Australian wood duck
Australian shelduck
Plumed whistling duck
Water whistling duck
Black swan
Cape Barren goose
(Australian bush birds)
King quail
Painted buttonquail
Green pygmy goose
White-browed crake
Banded lapwing
Pacific golden plover
Black-winged stilt
Laughing kookaburra
Sacred kingfisher
Forest kingfisher
Rainbow bee-eater
Pheasant coucal
Glossy black cockatoo
Musk lorikeet
Little lorikeet
Turquoise parrot
Swift parrot
Superb fruit dove
Rose-crowned fruit dove
Wonga pigeon
Topknot pigeon
Pacific emerald dove
Bar-shouldered dove
Peaceful dove
Bush bronzewing
Crested pigeon
Noisy pitta
Eastern spinebill
Noisy friarbird
Blue-faced honeyeater
New Holland honeyeater
Scarlet honeyeater
Striped honeyeater
Crimson chat
Variegated fairywren
Eastern yellow robin
Hooded robin
grey shrikethrush
Black faced cuckooshrike
Silvereye
Clamorous reed warbler
Eastern whipbird
Diamond firetail
Red browed finch
Plum headed finch
Double barred finch
Chestnut breasted mannikin
Satin bowerbird
Regent bowerbird
White browed woodswallow
Welcome swallow
Golden whistler
Rufous whistler
(Blue Mountains Bush walk)
Short beaked echidna
Brush tailed rock wallaby
Yellow tailed black cockatoo
Brush bronzewing
Dollarbird
White-browed babbler
Cunningham's skink
Eastern water skink
Southern leaf-tailed gecko
Masked lapwing
Bush stone-curlew
Gang gang cockatoo
Scaly-breasted lorikeet
Eastern rosella
Superb parrot
Red rumped parrot
Australasian figbird
Superb lyrebird
Black faced cuckooshrike
Eastern water dragon
Eastern blue-tongued lizard
Eastern long necked turtle
(Backyard to bush)
Southern hairy nosed wombat
Red necked wallaby
House mouse
Emu
Budgie
Cockatiel
Children's python
Wild turkey
Red bellied black snake
Coastal bearded dragon
Shingleback
Eastern snake necked turtle
Australian green tree frog
Dainty green tree frog
Green and golden bell frog
Splendid rainbowfish
Pacific blue-eye
Redback spider
Golden orb-web spider
Huntsman spider
Bird eating spider
Wolf spider
White-tail spider
Net-casting sider
Black house spider
Daddy long-legs spider
Desert scorpion
Rainforest scorpion
Praying mantis
Black house ant
Meat ant
Grasshopper
Phasmids
Giant burrowing cockroach
American cockroach
Centipede
Garden snail
Mealworm
(Other Australia)
Goodfellow's tree kangaroo
Eclectus parrot
Diamond dove
Striated grasswren
Red lory
Eastern grey kangaroo
Tammar wallaby
Malleefowl
Southern cassowary
Rainbow lorikeet
Purple crowned lorikeet
Common bronzewing
Blue faced honeyeater
Saltwater crocodile

Australian sea lion
Sub-Antarctic fur seal
New Zealand fur seal
Australian pelican
Fiordland penguin
Little penguin
Palm cockatoo
Freshwater crocodile
Komodo dragon
Short tailed monitor
Pygmy bearded dragon


and lots more snakes and other reptiles.

Aldabra tortoise
Quokka
Rufous bettong

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Taronga species list:

1) Anyone who actually knows the collection fancy checking this list?
2) There appears to be rather a lot of vague or non-category species listed mostly among the invertebrates, but some vertebrates too.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Taronga species list:

(Australian walkabout)
Red kangaroo
Tammar wallaby
Swamp wallaby
Agile wallaby
Red-necked wallaby
Emu
(Koala Walkabout)
Koala
(Platypus house)
Platypus
Common wombat
(Australian nightlife)
Tasmanian devil
Eastern quoll
Long-nosed potoroo
Yellow bellied glider
Plains rat
Spinifex hopping mouse
Barn owl
New Caledonian giant gecko
Red-tailed phascogale
Greater bilby
Long-nosed bandicoot
Brush-tailed bettong
Common ringtail possum
Squirrel glider
Feathertail glider
Greater stick-nest rat
Ghost bat
Tawny frogmouth
Diamond python
Long-beaked echidna
(Australian rainforest aviary)
Rainbow lorikeet
Musk lorikeet
Eclectus parrot
Australian king parrot
Double-eyed fig parrot
Paradise riflebird
Wonga pigeon
Topknot pigeon
Pacific emerald dove
Bornw cuckoo-dove
White-headed pigeon
Buff-banded rail
Black-breasted buttonquail
Regent bowerbird
Eastern whipbird
Black-faced monarch
Pacific koel
Crimson rosella
Superb fruit dove
Red-browed finch
Blue-faced parrotfinch
Noisy pitta
(Australian wetlands)
Black-necked stork
Little pied cormorant
Australian pelican
Brolga
Royal spoonbill
Pacific blak duck
Chestnut teal
Blue-billed duck
Australian wood duck
Australian shelduck
Plumed whistling duck
Water whistling duck
Black swan
Cape Barren goose
(Australian bush birds)
King quail
Painted buttonquail
Green pygmy goose
White-browed crake
Banded lapwing
Pacific golden plover
Black-winged stilt
Laughing kookaburra
Sacred kingfisher
Forest kingfisher
Rainbow bee-eater
Pheasant coucal
Glossy black cockatoo
Musk lorikeet
Little lorikeet
Turquoise parrot
Swift parrot
Superb fruit dove
Rose-crowned fruit dove
Wonga pigeon
Topknot pigeon
Pacific emerald dove
Bar-shouldered dove
Peaceful dove
Bush bronzewing
Crested pigeon
Noisy pitta
Eastern spinebill
Noisy friarbird
Blue-faced honeyeater
New Holland honeyeater
Scarlet honeyeater
Striped honeyeater
Crimson chat
Variegated fairywren
Eastern yellow robin
Hooded robin
grey shrikethrush
Black faced cuckooshrike
Silvereye
Clamorous reed warbler
Eastern whipbird
Diamond firetail
Red browed finch
Plum headed finch
Double barred finch
Chestnut breasted mannikin
Satin bowerbird
Regent bowerbird
White browed woodswallow
Welcome swallow
Golden whistler
Rufous whistler
(Blue Mountains Bush walk)
Short beaked echidna
Brush tailed rock wallaby
Yellow tailed black cockatoo
Brush bronzewing
Dollarbird
White-browed babbler
Cunningham's skink
Eastern water skink
Southern leaf-tailed gecko
Masked lapwing
Bush stone-curlew
Gang gang cockatoo
Scaly-breasted lorikeet
Eastern rosella
Superb parrot
Red rumped parrot
Australasian figbird
Superb lyrebird
Black faced cuckooshrike
Eastern water dragon
Eastern blue-tongued lizard
Eastern long necked turtle
(Backyard to bush)
Southern hairy nosed wombat
Red necked wallaby
House mouse
Emu
Budgie
Cockatiel
Children's python
Wild turkey
Red bellied black snake
Coastal bearded dragon
Shingleback
Eastern snake necked turtle
Australian green tree frog
Dainty green tree frog
Green and golden bell frog
Splendid rainbowfish
Pacific blue-eye
Redback spider
Golden orb-web spider
Huntsman spider
Bird eating spider
Wolf spider
White-tail spider
Net-casting sider
Black house spider
Daddy long-legs spider
Desert scorpion
Rainforest scorpion
Praying mantis
Black house ant
Meat ant
Grasshopper
Phasmids
Giant burrowing cockroach
American cockroach
Centipede
Garden snail
Mealworm
(Other Australia)
Goodfellow's tree kangaroo
Eclectus parrot
Diamond dove
Striated grasswren
Red lory
Eastern grey kangaroo
Tammar wallaby
Malleefowl
Southern cassowary
Rainbow lorikeet
Purple crowned lorikeet
Common bronzewing
Blue faced honeyeater
Saltwater crocodile

Australian sea lion
Sub-Antarctic fur seal
New Zealand fur seal
Australian pelican
Fiordland penguin
Little penguin
Palm cockatoo
Freshwater crocodile
Komodo dragon
Short tailed monitor
Pygmy bearded dragon


and lots more snakes and other reptiles.

Aldabra tortoise
Quokka
Rufous bettong

Again, where is the species list from?

Also, "Wild Turkey, wolf spider, daddy long-legs spider, desert scorpion, forest scorpion, praying mantis, grasshopper, Phasmids, American cockroach, centipede, garden snail, mealworm" really?

~Thylo

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Last night I quietly switched my vote from Chester to Taronga based on the seemingly huge species list present at Taronga and the apparent at least average quality of the enclosures there. However, after sleeping on this and thanks both to @TeaLovingDave reminding just how fantastic Chester's exhibitry really is and @CGSwans and TLD proposing the arguments of the value of Taronga's native collection vs Chester's exotic one, I think I might be switching back to the Chester camp. Not that I think it'll make much difference given the overwhelming total for Taronga atm combined with the fact that very few seem to want to actually discuss the arguments presented (which is fine).

~Thylo

 

[Coelacanth18]

Again, where is the species list from?

It appears to be from the Wikipedia list. Origin beyond that is unclear; the list has been edited as recently as this year, though.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

It appears to be from the Wikipedia list. Origin beyond that is unclear; the list has been edited as recently as this year, though.

That's good to know, sounds like it's fairly accurate then.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

That's good to know, sounds like it's fairly accurate then.

~Thylo

With the caveats about padding with non-category or vague species, and CGSwans' statement that:

Looking at it I suspect it's probably an over-estimate now for birds, but otherwise seems approximately right at least as of three years ago.

 

[pipaluk]

There are also a few duplicates, red necked and Tammar wallaby are both listed twice, probably because the Wikipedia list is done by exhibits and some species are in more than one area of the zoo

 

[amur leopard]

1) Anyone who actually knows the collection fancy checking this list?
2) There appears to be rather a lot of vague or non-category species listed mostly among the invertebrates, but some vertebrates too.

Again, where is the species list from?

Also, "Wild Turkey, wolf spider, daddy long-legs spider, desert scorpion, forest scorpion, praying mantis, grasshopper, Phasmids, American cockroach, centipede, garden snail, mealworm" really?

~Thylo

TLD:
1)

what was on the Wikipedia page seems appears to be up-to-date, with the exception of the Lemur walkthrough, which now has five capybara brothers.

2) I know some of them are sketchy, but the point is that there is a species of those categories in the zoo. I don't think anyone can expect any species list to have the exact species of spider - most zoo signing doesn't even include the genus of the insect and I imagine a few of the species listings on ZIMS being slightly vague as well.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

2) I know some of them are sketchy, but the point is that there is a species of those categories in the zoo. I don't think anyone can expect any species list to have the exact species of spider - most zoo signing doesn't even include the genus of the insect and I imagine a few of the species listings on ZIMS being slightly vague as well.

My point is that these are all so vague that one cannot count them for this geographic category.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

[QUOTE="amur leopard, post: 1174452, member: 15737"2)]I know some of them are sketchy, but the point is that there is a species of those categories in the zoo. I don't think anyone can expect any species list to have the exact species of spider - most zoo signing doesn't even include the genus of the insect and I imagine a few of the species listings on ZIMS being slightly vague as well.[/QUOTE]

Why? While some zoos use very vague signage the vast, vast majority of invertebrates I've seen in zoos have been specified to at least the genus level, and usually to the species level. With spiders specifically I've seen roughly 67 species in zoos, all listed to species level. I've seen an additional 50 or so species in the private trade which I've never seen in zoos, but all listed to species level and since many zoos invertebrates come from private traders I think zoos more often than not know what they're exhibiting regardless of whether the signage says so.

Regardless of that, as TLD pointed out many of the questionable listings don't apply to only species found in the relevant region, and at least a couple of those invertebrates definitely aren't native to the region. The turkey I imagine is supposed to be brush-turkey, but the mealworm and cockroach are native to Europe and Africa respectively.

~Thylo

 

[pipaluk]

I can't believe anyone would base their vote on a mealworm or cockroach? Surely not....

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I can't believe anyone would base their vote on a mealworm or cockroach? Surely not....

No I don't think they would, nor do I think any of the few errors in his species list will cause anyone to change their vote. The handful who have changed their votes likely did so due to the arguments from David and nothing else, but aside from that I think the results are pretty much locked in at this point. The conversation is simply for conversation's sake and to, hopefully, lead to lists with less erroneous listings in upcoming matches

~Thylo

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

I can't believe anyone would base their vote on a mealworm or cockroach? Surely not....

Why not?

Many people base their vote in part on whether and how a zoo displays various species. If mealworms are part of the zoo's on-show collection, I see no reason to exclude them from consideration (assuming the category allows it). They may not be kagus or kowaris, but they can definately enrich the zoo.

I'll go even further and say that I would rate a good, interesting or thought-provoking mealworm exhibit higher than a run-of-the-mill aviary with a couple of standard zoo birds or a boring paddock with red-necked wallabies.

* Note that this is purely hypothetical and has no little merit on the current match itself!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I can't believe anyone would base their vote on a mealworm or cockroach? Surely not....

Well, if it all comes down to a bare "which zoo has more species" algebra for some people, then list-padding surely does make a difference!

The conversation is simply for conversation's sake and to, hopefully, lead to lists with less erroneous listings in upcoming matches

Basically this, yes

Much as I'd rather like people to engage with the points I've made about comprehensiveness as opposed to specialism, and quality over quantity, rather than remaining silent or ranting about the mere concept anyone would disagree with their POV, at this stage I will probably have to settle for helping to assist in better accuracy for future rounds.

 

[Coelacanth18]

@ThylacineAlive, @TeaLovingDave, and @Maguari have all made a good case for Chester's unusually strong standing in the "Islands" part of this category - I'm especially impressed with Fruit Bat Forest, the awesome fossa enclosure, the presence of aye-aye and the breeding success with tuatara - but as @CGSwans pointed out, Taronga does a very good job of showcasing its continental wildlife compared even to other Australian zoos. They should be given credit for their nocturnal mammals in the Nightlife house - especially platypus, ghost bat, and Australian native rodents. Additionally, just as I was not inclined to give sympathy points to Taronga for its heavily native-biased bird collection earlier in the game, here I will give it due credit for the same collection. Even if its species number has been declining, the zoo probably still has ~100 or more relevant species and incredible walk-through aviaries for its native birds. Its native ectotherm collection is good too, although I don't know much about how they are housed.

I haven't decided yet how I'll vote, but I'll point out that right now the margin is about 58% Taronga to 42% Chester. I doubt any of the other 15 zoos still in the competition - except maybe Zurich thanks to Masoala - could have done as well to narrow the margin here. Taronga got lucky with the category; not so much with the competitor.

 

[amur leopard]

Why? While some zoos use very vague signage the vast, vast majority of invertebrates I've seen in zoos have been specified to at least the genus level, and usually to the species level. With spiders specifically I've seen roughly 67 species in zoos, all listed to species level. I've seen an additional 50 or so species in the private trade which I've never seen in zoos, but all listed to species level and since many zoos invertebrates come from private traders I think zoos more often than not know what they're exhibiting regardless of whether the signage says so.

Regardless of that, as TLD pointed out many of the questionable listings don't apply to only species found in the relevant region, and at least a couple of those invertebrates definitely aren't native to the region. The turkey I imagine is supposed to be brush-turkey, but the mealworm and cockroach are native to Europe and Africa respectively.

~Thylo

The conversation is simply for conversation's sake and to, hopefully, lead to lists with less erroneous listings in upcoming matches

At this point, I take offence. Just because their species isn't specified, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be including in the match! If they are Australian, which most of them very likely are, then they should be included. I'm not sure why you are arguing about this anyway given the triviality of the situation. You don't need to go nit-picking in a massive species list where there is very likely errors anyway, which didn't even come from me. And then this comment laced with contempt? Please.

 

[amur leopard]

I really haven't found many photos of Taronga's enclosures, but I have previously seen photos and most of the exhibits are up to a similar standard to this:






For tree kangaroos