ZooChat Cup finals: Beauval vs Bronx

[TZDugong]

After seeing what Beauval has to offer, this is a pretty easy 2-1 to Bronx for me. Apart from San Diego, Bronx is the best zoo for Birds I've ever seen. The highlight area is probably World of Birds, which is my favourite Bird House. A tremendous collection displayed in very nice exhibits, a bird fanatic could spend a whole day in this building alone. The Aquatic Bird House is also lovely; it's a little scruffy but the exhibitory is to a very high standard. Nearby is my favourite bird enclosure in the whole zoo, the Sea Bird aviary. I spent 30 minutes in this exhibit exhibit which is large and has a good amount a water space for the Penguins. The Pheasantry and Birds of Prey areas aren't quite as exciting but nevertheless provide decent exhibits for some nice species.

There are also bird species dotted about in the zoos other exhibits. JungleWorld has a massive space with free-flying birds in it; there is a nice selection of Madagascar birds in the Madagascar! exhibit; I believe there are ostriches and Guineafowl in the African Plains section; a few species in Congo Gorilla Forest and I believe there's a bird species (no idea which one) mixed with Komodo Dragons in the Zoo Center.

Beauval's highlights seem to be the excellent-looking bird show (although the critiques about it are totally valid), the great Hippo aviary thingy and a large greenhouse. Enough to get a point but not enough to beat Bronx imo.

Anyway, here are a couple of more photos to illustrate why I believe Bronx deserves to win this category:

World of Birds:

Aquatic Bird House:

Sea Bird Aviary:

Pheasantry:

 

[amur leopard]

If it over the same area, it doesn't matter, since the birds still have the same area to live in, if not more, so why is this being debated so ardently? Fine, if you wish to see it that way, they have 1 greenhouse! But what does it matter if the same space is covered?

I think I agree with @CGSwans overall impression of the buildings as an aside.

On another, brighter note, here is what Beauval does for bird conservation!

Red vented cockatoo in Philippines: Beauval substantially contributed financially to the making of the entire Rasa Island (a major cockatoo stronghold) into a protected nature reserve. Beauval has also singlehandedly started a campaign to reforest the surrounding islands, with help from now enthusiastic locals. The team in the Philippines also rescue injured or starving cockatoos and relocate them to different parts of the islands on a daily basis to spread out the population. Finally, they have constructed a gardening team made up of repenting poachers who rebuild the forest on its different storeys in neighbouring islands, allowing the population of this Critically Endangered species to rise from 20 to 200 specimens.
Hornbills in Malaysia: Beauval supports all the hornbill species in the region of the river Kinabatangan, studying them for more knowledge on their reproductive cycles and migration routes. They also make artificial nests for the hornbills to breed in. They form local teams to go into the forest and monitor the populations of hornbills. They also educate the locals on the hornbills. They also strongly enforce hornbill conservation throughout the public at home in France, allowing more donations to come in.
Leadbeater's ground hornbill in South Africa: They monitor the population often in order to keep a close eye on how the species is faring in the wild. They engage with the locals to help them support the hornbills, including going to primary schools and teaching children about them. They also do research on the poisoning of the hornbills and how it can be prevented by talking with locals and agricultural area owners to reduce the use of possibly deadly fertilisers and pesticides as well as poisons. They also often hand-rear struggling chicks, releasing them back into the wild when they are ready. There is also a separate team trying to find areas where the species is extinct to reintroduce the specimens found at the zoo to bolster the wild population and broaden the genetic pool. Lastly, they are researching the sub-specific statuses of some suggested sub species of the hornbill.
Condors in Argentina: Several teams take in injured, starving or struggling condors, rehabilitating them and releasing them back into areas where the species is now not found anymore. This has resulted in the rehabilitation and release of over 50 condors. They have also tagged 42 more condors to find out more about their habits and movements.
Harpy eagles in Brazil: They are now watching 60 nests daily to make sure that the chicks are doing well with many teams of locals and volunteers. They tag adults to observe their movements but also chicks before they leave the nests so that they can study how the chicks disperse once they leave the nest. They also study the genetic variability and social structure of the species, opening a door into all sorts of studies on their ability to widen the genetic pool.
Lammergeiers in France: Beauval opens up protected corridors for the species so that they can channel their way through Europe to areas they used to inhabit. This will more generally allow the reintroduction of this species into Europe elsewhere. 140 lammergeiers now soar over the Alps due to Beauval's efforts.
Songbirds in Indonesia: Beauval together with Jersey zoo have financed the construction of several centres for the rehabilitation of the songbirds that inhabit the forests of Indonesia. These include many critically endangered species. They also monitor their populations using tagging methods and teams of locals to locate the birds more generally.

 

[CGSwans]

If it over the same area, it doesn't matter, since the birds still have the same area to live in, if not more, so why is this being debated so ardently? Fine, if you wish to see it that way, they have 1 greenhouse! But what does it matter if the same space is covered?

It matters because it gives the impression of multiple exhibits, not just one (or possibly two, again I can’t remember) interconnected exhibits. It’s a semantic difference, but semantics matter because it affects how your argument is interpreted by other people.

 

[nczoofan]

If it over the same area, it doesn't matter, since the birds still have the same area to live in, if not more, so why is this being debated so ardently? Fine, if you wish to see it that way, they have 1 greenhouse! But what does it matter if the same space is covered?

Facts matter and being precise in rhetoric and statements matters as well. This is not the first time this has happened, and yet it seems to keep happening. It makes it hard to trust the other statements that are delivered. It's fine to say you don't know something or ask other members, who have a great wealth of knowledge for answers (especially when you have not visited a said zoo). But to act as if you know something, when you clearly don't is not the right thing to do.

 

[amur leopard]

(especially when you have not visited a said zoo)

1. I have
2. I did know, it is just that the greenhouses can be treated as distinct or indistinct depending entirely on what you consider distinct. The greenhouses clearly look separate on the map:


but to a different person they might seem morphed together. I don't think the assertion that 'I don't know' is warranted since I do and I'm not sure you do...
At any rate, it is not a matter of knowledge; I have visited this particular collection many times and the separation is entirely arbitrary and subjective.

Anyway, can we please get back on track? What are Bronx's conservation efforts like?

 

[CGSwans]

1. I have
2. I did know, it is just that the greenhouses can be treated as distinct or indistinct depending entirely on what you consider distinct. The greenhouses clearly look separate on the map:
View attachment 427431

but to a different person they might seem morphed together. I don't think the assertion that 'I don't know' is warranted since I do and I'm not sure you do...
At any rate, it is not a matter of knowledge; I have visited this particular collection many times and the separation is entirely arbitrary and subjective.

As you will all know I am very selective about when to participate in these debates, but this is not subjective. They are a single, unitary exhibit and it’s sophistry to suggest this is not the case. They might *look* separate on a map, but as a previous visitor to Beauval you know they are not.

Anyway, can we please get back on track?

Yes, let’s.

 

[nczoofan]

Bronx Zoo/WCS Conservation of Birds:
- Most of this is copied straight from their website and annual reports. On top of all this WCS protects landscapes in dozens of countries for focal species such as elephant, tiger and great apes. These same national parks and protected areas also conserve massive amounts of bird diversity.

African Grey Parrot:

• WCS runs a rehab center in Congo for African Grey Parrot. This center has rescued 400 parrots a year, and has released more than 1000 back into the wild. These parrots largely come from the pet trade, that has threatened populations of the species in recent years.

Andean Condor:

• "In 2015, WCS co-organized a meeting in Lima, Peru, attended by over 100 specialists from the Andean condor’s range countries—a first step toward developing a conservation strategy for the species." "Since the early 1990s, WCS has worked with local Bolivian communities on sustainable natural resource management in the country's Madidi Tambopata landscape, a 42,500-square-mile stronghold for condors, among others. Here, WCS scientists are monitoring wildlife populations and working to develop transboundary conservation plans that encompass the landscape's borders in northern Bolivia and southern Peru."
• "Ongoing programs in Bolivia, Chile, and Argentina will allow WCS staff to monitor annual migratory patterns in adult Andean condors, to gain information involving the distribution of those populations.

Flamingo:

• "We continue those efforts today, working to conserve the four flamingo species at risk: the lesser flamingo of East Africa, the Chilean flamingo, the Andean flamingo, and the James's (or Puna) flamingo."
• "In 2012, the Bronx Zoo’s Assistant Curator of Ornithology Dr. Nancy Clum led the first archipelago-wide survey of Caribbean flamingos in the Bahamas."

Old-World Vulture:

• "In Cambodia, WCS has stabilized some of the largest remaining populations of critically endangered white-rumped, slender-billed, and redheaded vulture species. By protecting nests and providing supplementary food, these vultures continue to thrive in the Northern Plains Landscape. In 2014, the supplementary feeding program became financially sustainable, through a partnership with a local ecotourism partner, the Sam Veasna Centre."

Giant Ibis:

• "The giant Ibis went unrecorded for more than 50 years until it was rediscovered by WCS in 1993."
  
• "WCS is working in partnership with the Cambodian government to protect the species, Cambodia's National Bird, and restore populations of it and the other endangered species across the landscape. We're doing this by working closely with local communities. With a local partner, Sansom Mlup Prey (SMP), we have developed a wildlife-friendly rice product named Ibis Rice for which farmers get paid a premium for protecting forest that is vital to the giant ibis. Meanwhile, communities receive additional income from an ecotourism initiative in which birdwatchers who see the giant ibis contribute to a community fund."

Common Loon:

• "WCS conducts the annual Adirondack Loon Census across northern New York State. Our loon census regularly engages 500-600 volunteers who scout loons on more than 200 lakes."

Magellanic Penguin:

• WCS has been supporting over 30 years of long-term research and monitoring of this iconic species, and works to conserve them by helping improve the management of commercial fisheries and of offshore drilling and the transport of oil in the Southwest Atlantic. Additionally, we currently work to protect the core reproductive sites of these penguins in coastal Patagonia in order to ensure their long-term survival.

Scarlet Macaw:

• WCS estimates that 250 individuals are within the Maya Biosphere Reserve of Guatemala, where we've long worked, and as few as 200 are in Belize.
• We're working with partners to protect macaw nesting and foraging habitat and to eliminate poaching so as to maintain and restore healthy populations

Maleo:

• In 2016, a series of camera traps were established in the Bogani-Binerean landscape, which covers forest area connecting the Maleo nesting ground on the beach and the Bogani Nani Wartabone National Park, the largest national park in Sulawesi. This yielded very useful insights into the range of species in the forest. The result, along with results from various field surveys conducted by WCS was presented to the local government in 2017. Since then, the local government in Bolaang Mongondow Selatan district has been taking an active role in designating the area as Wildlife Refuge. Recognizing the importance of the area for biodiversity, the local government also invited WCS to help develop ecotourism strategy for the area. In addition to working with the local government, WCS-IP has been working closely with a local organization, CELEBICA, in securing the Maleo corridor and supporting various community engagement activities. As part of its work on Maleo conservation, particularly in the Bogani-Binerean landscape, WCS-IP is currently establishing a research station in Binerean Cape. Through this research station, it is hoped that WCS-IP could continue to improve its conservation efforts for the Maleo and other important species in Sulawesi.

Arctic Migratory Bird Initiative:

• The Arctic Migratory Birds Initiative (AMBI) is a project designed to improve the status and secure the longterm sustainability of declining Arctic breeding migratory bird populations. After an assessment of the biodiversity of the Arctic regions, it was determined that many Arctic migratory species faced pressures from overharvesting and habitat degradation once they migrated south, particularly along the East Asian flyway. To address these issues, on a global scale, conservation organizations from the Americas, African, Eurasian, East Asian, Australasian and Circumpolar regions are working together to reduce stressors on migratory species, range-wide.
  
• In October 2017, the WCS Arctic Beringia and Russia Programs collaborated to run a three-day shorebird workshop held at the WCS Sikhote-Alin Research Center in Ternei, Russia. The purpose of this meeting was to share ideas, practice advanced avian tracking and data analysis skills, and to identify pressing trans-border conservation needs that can be addressed via collaborative action across the East Asian-Australasian Flyway.

There are many more programs for bird conservation done by the WCS, but I feel like the point has been made that WCS conducts population assessments, brings together scientists and policymakers, and preserves core habitat for bird species globally.

 

[amur leopard]

I don't see how the stork, penguin, small bird and parrot exhibits are better than those at Beauval.
It would be useful for someone voting in favour of Bronx to run through this and enlighten me. I don't see how especially the Storm's stork and Magellanic penguin exhibits are anything like as good as their Beauval counterparts.
I think it is more useful to compare exhibits found in both zoos than to just point out the benefits of both separately. That's why I think someone who has visited both facilities could deliver some very useful information on this matter and thus help us to come to a decision. There seems to be a general trend that people who have visited Bronx vote in favour of it and vice versa with Beauval, so perhaps a comparison by a *neutral* entity could help us out.
After all, seeing photos is not the same as visiting.

 

[Mehdi]

There seems to be a general trend that people who have visited Bronx vote in favour of it and vice versa with Beauval, so perhaps a comparison by a *neutral* entity could help us out.

I know Vision for ex. has visited both and has voted for Bronx so there was indeed a neutral opinion (if you want to call it that) in this discussion.

 

[TZDugong]

I don't see how the stork, penguin, small bird and parrot exhibits are better than those at Beauval.
It would be useful for someone voting in favour of Bronx to run through this and enlighten me. I don't see how especially the Storm's stork and Magellanic penguin exhibits are anything like as good as their Beauval counterparts.

The Magellanic Penguin exhibit is quite large, the Sea Bird Aviary itself is too big to really capture in one photo and the Penguins have lots of hiding spots and quite a bit of water. No photo has shown the entirety of Bronx's Penguin exhibit, and just judging from photos I'd say it's better than Beauval's exhibit. The small bird exhibits at Bronx are generally good; they're usually a decent size with natural features. I don't really remember much about Bronx's stork exhibit, I don't think it was bad, but it isn't exactly amazing.

I think it is more useful to compare exhibits found in both zoos than to just point out the benefits of both separately. That's why I think someone who has visited both facilities could deliver some very useful information on this matter and thus help us to come to a decision. There seems to be a general trend that people who have visited Bronx vote in favour of it and vice versa with Beauval, so perhaps a comparison by a *neutral* entity could help us out.

I don't think there's more than 3 or 4 people who've voted on this that have been to both zoos. Talking only about the facility that you've been to makes sense; I don't know enough about Beauval to make an informed post, but I do know enough about Bronx to make one. I find it useful to hear information about both zoos separately, then I can draw from both to form an opinion.

I'm pretty sure that at least a few of the 19 people who voted for Bronx haven't visited, although I'd hazard a guess that everyone (or at least the vast majority) who voted for Beauval have visited Beauval (I'm going on the fact that everyone except CGSwans who have voted for Beauval are European).

 

[nczoofan]

ZTL lists about 230 species of bird at Beauval. Bronx as of 2017 reported themselves having 301 species.

Since we have been debating exhibits so much, I felt the need to at least have this statistic in the thread.

 

[Ursus]

I'm pretty sure that at least a few of the 19 people who voted for Bronx haven't visited, although I'd hazard a guess that everyone (or at least the vast majority) who voted for Beauval have visited Beauval (I'm going on the fact that everyone except CGSwans who have voted for Beauval are European).

Have not been to either zoos personally meaning my vote is purely based on what I can find about the zoos and the debates here.

 

[Coelacanth18]

There seems to be a general trend that people who have visited Bronx vote in favour of it and vice versa with Beauval, so perhaps a comparison by a *neutral* entity could help us out.

I've seen a bit of that trend in many of the matches, but I think that's more of a familiarity thing; people go with their firsthand experiences, and it probably takes more of an argument to convince them than it would if they hadn't visited either zoo.

Do you mean a "neutral" entity as in someone who hasn't visited either? They could give their interpretation of the arguments laid out thus far, but having done it myself I can vouch that it is harder to lay out my own argument for facilities I haven't myself seen.

I'll voice my own opinion: I think both zoos are strong in this category in species, exhibits, and in conservation efforts, all of which are very impressive on both sides. For me, the numbers tip it slightly in Bronx's favor for both species and conservation efforts, while exhibit-wise Bronx strikes me with the level of naturalistic detail in many of its enclosures, especially WOB and the Aquatic Bird House/Seabird Aviary. Beauval doesn't seem to have that to the same degree, although the hippo aviary is indeed amazing and the other exhibits look above average. Therefore, a 2-1 for Bronx seems appropriate.

 

[CGSwans]

ZTL lists about 230 species of bird at Beauval. Bronx as of 2017 reported themselves having 301 species.

Since we have been debating exhibits so much, I felt the need to at least have this statistic in the thread.

Is that Bronx, though, or the five WCS zoos combined?

 

[nczoofan]

Is that Bronx, though, or the five WCS zoos combined?

That is Bronx Zoo only. Its the second to last page of this PDF.

https://c532f75abb9c1c021b8c-e46e47...7/06/23/92qyj61oww_2016_WCS_Annual_Report.pdf

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I receive email notifications for every birth in Beauval and can confirm that especially the Mynas, Siberian cranes and Blue-throated macaws have bred exceedingly well in the past year.

I sincerely doubt this is true

! But what does it matter if the same space is covered?

Because you have a track record of either a) making snap judgements about exhibits you only know from photographs and then speaking authoritatively about their size and/or quality or b) making exaggerated or inaccurate statements about exhibits you DO have first-hand experience of, and then finding ways to stretch your initial statement to fit the truth once called out on the matter in other words, it's a matter of credibility.

After all, seeing photos is not the same as visiting.

Something worth remembering!

There seems to be a general trend that people who have visited Bronx vote in favour of it and vice versa with Beauval, so perhaps a comparison by a *neutral* entity could help us out.

I've been to neither and the matter seems pretty strongly in favour of Bronx to me, for what it is worth.

 

[Brum]

I've been to neither and the matter seems pretty strongly in favour of Bronx to me, for what it is worth.

I'm pretty sure that (including me and you) there are at least four votes in favour of the Bronx who have been to neither, and three of us are European as well.

 

[NSU42]

I'm pretty sure that (including me and you) there are at least four votes in favour of the Bronx who have been to neither, and three of us are European as well.

It includes me as well. Beauval has some very nice exhibits. They just aren't quite on Bronx's level from what I have seen in my opinion. Unfortunate they had to draw the Bronx in this category, but we have seen unlucky draws before. I'm not European, but have been judging solely on arguments here.

 

[amur leopard]

I sincerely doubt this is true

It is true. It's funny how you know think everything I say is false, isn't it

Because you have a track record of either a) making snap judgements about exhibits you only know from photographs and then speaking authoritatively about their size and/or quality or b) making exaggerated or inaccurate statements about exhibits you DO have first-hand experience of, and then finding ways to stretch your initial statement to fit the truth once called out on the matter in other words, it's a matter of credibility.

Thank you, this point has already been made 5 times up thread.

 

[antonmuster]

I have visited neither institution. Initially, I flipped back and forth between the two contestants multiple times as arguments came in. Now with the more detailed discussion and images in this thread, I think it is only the bird show - which appears to receive universal appraisals as one-of-a-kind-magnificent (certain husbandry doubts notwithstanding) - that keeps me from voting 3-0 in favor of Bronx.
Judging by the images, the aesthetics of Beauval quite simply are not my cup of tea at all. Neatly manicured lawns, trees, even rocks. The zoo manages, it seems, to let even natural features appear unnatural. Bronx's enclosures in contrast appear more scruffy, but also more wild, authentic, and natural (which imo leads to interesting questions regarding whether and how the french and english gardening traditions leave their traces in contemporary zoo design). Both zoos it appears have a lot to offer, however, there is the consideration of aesthetics and naturalism, and the best of Bronx (e.g. world of birds) appears to me to outmatch by a considerable margin the best Beauval has to offer. Finally, Bronx seems to also outmatch Beauval in conservation and collection size.

BTW: According to their own website, the Serre des Oiseaux is 2000m2 and houses 'around 300' (presumably individual) birds.