Out of interest, what 4-5 exhibits at Plzen would you say are extremely good? Just judging from photos, Plzen has quite a few good exhibits but nothing that I'd consider "extremely good".
ZooChat Cup finals: Plzen vs Zurich
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
That is your argument, not mine.
Again, I never made the latter argument.
Frankly, I feel we are running in circles here. For all the pictures you have posted, to my eyes, I do not see more than average enclosures at best - save perhaps for the vulture aviary. There's more to an enclosure than its size. While Zurich, overall, is certainly not perfect, it appears to me that exhibit-wise it makes Plzen pale in comparison. Case in point: Is there an exhibit at Plzen that excels e.g. Zurich's scarlett ibis aviary (a thoroughly middling exhibit at Zurich I would say, also walk-in btw) exhibitry wise?
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Siberian Aviary, Old World Vulture aviary, Central American aviary, and the mixed Australian exhibit containing Emu and various Australasian geese and shelducks. The large African aviary possibly inches towards "very good" when it is the summer months and hence not being used as winter housing for extra waterfowl, at which times it's definitely crowded.
No, it's me summarising what seem to be the two general sides of the debate within this thread thus far. How would you summarise the two general sides of the argument?
....which is why I explicitly said (in the passage you quote) that it is an argument that Malawi has been making
and the passage was in reply to you because you appeared to be citing those two aviaries in terms of his argument.
Absolutely not.
Fortunately, that's not just my opinion. Neither do e.g. the EAZA raptor TAG or DEFRA (or you!). Comparing Plzen's aviary to bad practice doesn't make it good.
I would phrase the question like this: Provided zoo X had 50 million to spend. Would you prefer it built something like Masoala, or 100 Plzen style aviaries?
I would say that is an optimistic view of Plzen and an unfavorable appraisal of Zurich.
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FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that strolling past, and stopping at, Plzen's aviaries is a pleasant experience, but is this really true?
The Siberian Aviary, sans owls, yes certainly. One of the nicer places to stand in a European zoo actually (but it's no Masoala, he added sotto voce). But apart from that I can't think of a genuinely impressive aviary.
As a thought experiment:
Koln is a good zoo for birds, maybe even a great one, but I don't associate it with great aviaries. If you took some of Plzen's best aviaries, which I agree seem impressive in comparison with the bird islands, and placed them in Koln they would not stand out.
The Central American aviary, the African Bee-eater aviary and the European Vulture aviary are all candidates for Plzen's best (and they are good exhibits, don't get me wrong). But they are not remarkable, they do not sparkle. Where Plzen shines is in showing the visitor exciting species like Sumatran treepie, but that can only take it so far in this competition (about as far as one point
).
Hmm, just going by the photos you provided; the Siberian Aviary looks nice, although calling it extremely good seems to be a stretch; the Vulture aviary looks very good; the Central American aviary looks nice but nothing remarkable; ditto for the Australian exhibit; the African aviary looks to be of a nice size but seems a little bare, I'd say it's pretty average. So that's one borderline extremely good exhibit (Vultures), three good exhibits and one average one. If that's the best Plzen has to offer then my vote still goes to Zurich.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
As presumably most falconry centres are not members of EAZA, they would not be bound by any opinion of its tag.
It was you who accused Plzen only of causing 'unnecessary chronic suffering'
It very much depends on context, I suspect - personally I think a bit of both (big rainforest house with free-flying birds AND pleasant little aviaries and exhibits dotted around the rest of the collection) is the ideal.
Mind you, if we are bringing finances into the equation (which I don't think we necessarily should) it's worth noting that we are comparing a collection which made CHF 53,254,000 (roughly EUR 50,000,000) in 2018 with a collection which made CZK 137,118,000 (roughly EUR 5,500,000) in 2018
and therefore we can't exactly make judgements about what Plzen would or would not do with that kind of income! As such I really don't think this is the question people are debating in this thread 
You mean the one that the penguins never use because they don't need to?
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
It very much depends on context, I suspect - personally I think a bit of both (big rainforest house with free-flying birds AND pleasant little aviaries and exhibits dotted around the rest of the collection) is the ideal.
Mind you, if we are bringing finances into the equation (which I don't think we necessarily should) it's worth noting that we are comparing a collection which made CHF 53,254,000 (roughly EUR 50,000,000) in 2018 with a collection which made CZK 137,118,000 (roughly EUR 5,500,000) in 2018
Money always puts things into perspective! - however much a dirty subject some would consider it! This diversion might actually be more interesting than the thread itself...
...which incidentally is an apt description of... Zurich, imo.
Clearly, my argument was not about finances per se, but about how given resources are invested. Plzen appears to prioritize species numbers above all else. Zurich appears to prioritize exhibitry and creating memorable experiences.
Bearing in mind the very first non-Masoala exhibit you chose to cite as a highlight was the aforementioned King Penguin exhibit, I'm not so sure that "average-to-good" is an unfavourable appraisal of the exhibits beyond Masoala at all.
More to the point, the one which is off-display to the public and therefore is not comparable to the on-display indoor exhibit at Zurich
which incidentally seems to be the *only* King Penguin exhibit, with the only outdoor access being during the parade unless I am very much mistaken.See, your mileage may vary - I genuinely think that looking through the gallery there are more than a few exhibits at Zurich which are worse than similar exhibits at Plzen. Obviously the comparison isn't perfect as I think the species has been replaced, as noted above, but my comparison of how the two collections display/displayed Burrowing Owl is a good example.
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I fail to remember where I made such a claim?!?
You are mistaken.
Are Zurich's weakest exhibits worse than Plzen's best? Likely. But what exactly does that prove?
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Interesting - any photographs of the outdoor King Penguin exhibit? Looking through the gallery I could only find shots of the Humboldt Penguin exhibit elsewhere in the zoo, and I was given to understand that nowhere in Europe outside of the UK had outdoor exhibits for King other than Basel, and that only in winter.
....which is my point - it's a lot easier to prioritize exhibitry when you have 10x the income and are located in one of the richest countries in Europe
also, the vast majority of the large collection of birds at Plzen is a relic of the fact the current curator of birds and small mammals donated his own private collection to the zoo some time ago; I believe the only big import of new bird species in recent years related to a Customs seizure of birds from the Maghreb in 2016. As such it's a little unfair to suggest they have prioritised species numbers over exhibitry and memorable experiences, methinks!The Humboldts are outdoors in summer and indoors in winter and vice versa the kings.
Incidentally, the pictures I posted are an across the board visual documentation of birds at Zurich, "the good, the bad, and the ugly". I find it telling that you naturally assumed it was a selection of Zurich's finest. Just saying
More to the point, the one which is off-display to the public and therefore is not comparable to the on-display indoor exhibit at Zurich
Well there is a window, so it is not really off-display
I thought that in Zürich there are Humboldt and King switched in the outside exhibit throughout the year...so did I mixed it with Basel, or is it happening in both zoos?
Same! Going to Innsbruck though instead, for what should be a very good trip, as well as of course Hellabrunn.
Otherwise, having looked ay Zurich's exhibits vs. Plzen's, Zurich's seem to be similar (some less good even, apart from of course Masoala), but just with more expensive materials to make them look more flashy! I would be surprised if the total area of the Zurich aviaries even rivalled that of Plzen's despite their implied better welfare...
Have been to Zurich, just not Plzen, although I hope to change that in a couple of years.
As you can imagine, a return trip to Innsbruck is on my itinerary too
feel free to message me if you have any questions or advice needed for either collection, naturally. Although my return visit will obviously update my information a little, I'm happy to help with what I already have.