ZooChat Cup finals: Plzen vs Zurich

[twilighter]

Just to add some more Zurich pics:

This is another two level free flying area in Exotarium:






Selenga Eurasian wetlands area with European golden eye, Northern Shovler, Lesser white fronted goose, Red breasted goose,European pond terrapin,Smew and etc:






Snowy Owl


Egyptian Vulture


Waldrapp Ibis, Oyster catcher, Spoonbill


Chilian flamingo


Black necked swan in the Capucin Island

 

[antonmuster]

Otherwise, having looked ay Zurich's exhibits vs. Plzen's, Zurich's seem to be similar (some less good even, apart from of course Masoala), but just with more expensive materials to make them look more flashy!

...keep telling yourself that:

no aviaries are particularly overloaded with species; I think from memory the most heavily populated aviary contained five species;

Plzen: likely fifteen to twenty species.

Zurich houses one species in similar space (not saying this is necessarily the way to go, in fact I'm not a big fan of the above aviary, just saying the above arguments do not withstand scrutiny, despite their constant repetition).

I would be surprised if the total area of the Zurich aviaries even rivalled that of Plzen's despite their implied better welfare...

Only if ignoring Masoala. Judging by the pictures, I would be surprised if the total area all of Plzen's aviaries amounted to even half of Masoala (i.e. 5500m2).

 

[twilighter]

Few other images from Exotarium:

 

[twilighter]

It's worth noting that this discussion is really making me regret the fact that Zurich isn't *quite* doable as a daytrip from Munich, given the fact I will be visiting Bavaria in a few weeks..... much as I am arguing in favour of Plzen for this match, I very, very much want to visit Zurich someday and think it probably would end up a lot closer to the top spot in my overall zoo rankings than the Czech collection is.

Looked into it and due to the train schedules I would only have about 5 hours at the zoo if I tried it, which I doubt would be enough.

May be is good to hold until Easter time, when they open Lewa ...

 

[CGSwans]

I think I've explained this suggestion enough in this and other contests! Awful exhibits take a hammering off some influential members whilst some at the zoo they are voting for are conveniently ignored. Everyone has their own criteria, which I respect, but my opinion apparently is always wrong?

It’s not your opinion on the zoos themselves that bothers me, it’s the repeated carping about supposed unfairness that isn’t sustained by evidence. In the first Cup Burgers supposedly had it in the bag, but you were silent when Berlin and Prague were the two zoos that made the final. You also didn’t have any complaints when Burgers and the aesthetically similar Leipzig were eliminated in the first round this time, in large part due to suffering defeats by the Tierpark and Antwerp. You complain about unfairness when your preferred style of zoo doesn’t win, but everything is fine when they lose.

And here’s the kicker: even if zoos such as Burgers *did* have a structural advantage, that would be fine, because that would reflect the preponderance of opinion among voters.

I don’t mind responding to fair and considered feedback on how this game works, but I’m tired of having the integrity of both the game and many of its players being sniped at on a semi-regular basis. Play the ball, not the referees.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Plzen: likely fifteen to twenty species.

No, literally five species. I even listed the species which were within said aviary

I *assume* you are estimating the entire stocklist of the whole row of aviaries in the photograph you linked, rather than deliberately wildly exaggerating the stocklist of a single aviary. If so, it's a little disingenuous to compare a row of smaller aviaries which are part of an exhibit complex to a single free-standing aviary as you have done above.

A more accurate comparison would be to compare the quality of one of Plzen's free-standing aviaries of that footplan, such as the Central American one.

Also....

...keep telling yourself that:

You do realise you're replying to someone else there, and not me? Someone who hadn't posted in the thread until then, I think, and therefore doesn't merit your implied scorn.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

May be is good to hold until Easter time, when they open Lewa ...

That would just make the intrinsic problem of time worse

 

[antonmuster]

How is it disingenuous to compare a row of aviaries with a single aviary that appears roughly similar in size?

 

[TZDugong]

If so, it's a little disingenuous to compare a row of smaller aviaries which are part of an exhibitcomplex to a single free-standing aviary as you have done above.

I think @antonmuster 's point still stands though, Zurich seems to offer more space for their birds, at least in this one instance.

You do realise you're replying to someone else there, and not me? Someone who hadn't posted in the thread until then, I think, and therefore doesn't merit your implied scorn.

I think they're specifically referring to the portion of the post that said Plzen offers more space for their birds than Zurich

 

[twilighter]

That would just make the intrinsic problem worse

You know best. By the way, I think full 5 hours is not too bad for pre-Lewa Zurich.The ZTL is not listing Geoffroy's dwarf lemur anymore, so you can cut few hours

 

[TeaLovingDave]

How is it disingenuous to compare a row of aviaries with a single aviary that appears roughly similar in size?

Zurich seems to offer more space for their birds, at least in this one instance.

But it's easy to make such claims if you do so by comparing two completely different types of aviary.

For instance, if you compare this row of aviaries at Zurich, assuming there are about 4 or 5 such aviaries in the row as it seems:

....to this single aviary at Plzen.

 

[TZDugong]

But it's easy to make such claims if you do so by comparing two completely different types of aviary.

Hence why I said "in this one instance”, although I have a feeling if one were to make a hypothetical “average” exhibit for Plzen and Zurich, Zurich’s “average” exhibit would be higher if that makes sense.

 

[antonmuster]

This is pointless. I am no bird expert. But Plzen clearly seems to stock its aviaries with - let's call it very generous numbers of species. Do you disagree? I would say five species in that small aviary qualifies for that assessment. I suspect so do more than fifteen species in the siberian walkthrough aviary. I'm sure there are other examples. Moreover, I assume Plzen doesn't house its 400 species in the aviaries you have shared pictures of in this thread alone. So what of the other aviaries and enclosures (this is an honest question)?

Why does Zurich not have 400 species of birds like Plzen, but 'only' 100? Presumably, because they grant their animals more space. These comparisons are pointless anyway: I wager you could easily fit all of Plzen's aviaries in Masoala.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

But Plzen clearly seems to stock its aviaries with - let's call it very generous numbers of species. Do you disagree? I would say five species in that small aviary qualifies for that assessment. I suspect so do more than fifteen species in the siberian walkthrough aviary.

Definitely speciose but (barring a few specific aviaries in summer, and the wetland ones in winter) certainly not overcrowded. The overcrowding issue was significantly higher in 2017, so it's a matter they are actively dealing with. As regards the row of aviaries we were discussing above, it's worth remembering there are indoor portions to the exhibits too, so those five species aren't restricted to that single outdoor space.

Moreover, I hope Plzen doesn't house its 400 species in the aviaries you have shared pictures of in this thread. So what of the other aviaries and enclosures (this is an honest question)?

As I said upthread, some of the aviary photographs I linked to are intended to represent a "type" found more widely throughout the collection for instance, I only linked to a few photographs of the "hexagonal bird island" aviaries (comprising a pair of outdoor aviaries, with a central house which contains the indoor housing for each aviary) as - barring varying levels of vegetation, water, substrate and so forth - the basic design is used throughout.

However, between those "bird islands" found in the Dinopark, the Asian Garden, and in various other regions of the zoo - they pop up here and there throughout the zoo, with clusters close to exhibit complexes such as the Australasian area, the Asian Plains area and the hoofstock houses at the foot of the collection - there are perhaps between 30-40 of these aviaries in total rather than the perhaps 3 or 4 I've shared images of.

Similarly, I couldn't exactly post photographs of every single moat or pond which contains wildfowl - this also accounts for a good chunk of the bird collection!

 

[HOMIN96]

I would say five species in that small aviary qualifies for that assessment

If we are talking about the row of aviaries you posted earlier, the only one housing 5 species is actually double aviary (both inside and outside) other have 1-3 species

 

[TeaLovingDave]

These comparisons are pointless anyway: I wager you could easily fit all of Plzen's aviaries in Masoala.

That way madness lies you could easily fit Masoala inside Bush, and Bush inside Gondwanaland, and end up with a zoological Matryoshka doll.

 

[HOMIN96]

Hence why I said "in this one instance”, although I have a feeling if one were to make a hypothetical “average” exhibit for Plzen and Zurich, Zurich’s “average” exhibit would be higher if that makes sense.

I understand what you want to say and I partly agree. However, I think this again sort of brings up the money issue, maybe even bit of history for context and I don't want to get too political here...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

However, I think this again sort of brings up the money issue, maybe even bit of history for context and I don't want to get too political here...

Fire away, methinks

 

[lintworm]

But it's easy to make such claims if you do so by comparing two completely different types of aviary.

For instance, if you compare this row of aviaries at Zurich, assuming there are about 4 or 5 such aviaries in the row as it seems:

....to this single aviary at Plzen.

It is interesting to see people comparing zoos of which they have both visited only one. The linked picture for Zürich are the outdoor aviaries in the Exotarium, which, bar a doible aviary for Burrowing parakeet are all connected to much larger indoor enclosures.

Similarly @antonmuster linking to the aviaries of the Philippine house in Plzen, which don't even necessarily have birds. They had a group of Purple herons in one when I was there, but I hope it was temporary as the birds hardly fitted...

Also comparing finances is useless as average salary costs in Zurich would be at least 5x higher.

 

[pipaluk]

It’s not your opinion on the zoos themselves that bothers me, it’s the repeated carping about supposed unfairness that isn’t sustained by evidence. In the first Cup Burgers supposedly had it in the bag, but you were silent when Berlin and Prague were the two zoos that made the final. You also didn’t have any complaints when Burgers and the aesthetically similar Leipzig were eliminated in the first round this time, in large part due to suffering defeats by the Tierpark and Antwerp. You complain about unfairness when your preferred style of zoo doesn’t win, but everything is fine when they lose.

And here’s the kicker: even if zoos such as Burgers *did* have a structural advantage, that would be fine, because that would reflect the preponderance of opinion among voters.

I don’t mind responding to fair and considered feedback on how this game works, but I’m tired of having the integrity of both the game and many of its players being sniped at on a semi-regular basis. Play the ball, not the referees.

My use of the word 'bias' was not meant to imply voters were being dishonest or cheating and if use of that word caused offence, I apologise. It is more a case that many people do have a clear vision of what constitutes a good zoo or exhibit and so are naturally drawn in favour of the zoo that best represents their vision. As you have implied, probably in some cases I am as guilty of this as the next person.
I do think it appears more favour a Zurich type zoo, which means it is a lot harder for species rich zoo like Plzen to win, particularly in close contests.
I would be interested to know Zurich's win percentage in matches where Masaola was included in the category against matches where it wasn't, I may have to investigate this. And no this is not a dig at Zurich or any of its followers!