'Help' For Zoos in the UK

A

Andrew Swales

Well-Known Member
We have this afternoon received communication from DEFRA on behalf of the UK Government.

The communication is in the form of a 15 page statement and a questionnaire.

The statement is contradictory in places, but its important points are:

1 - DEFRA state that UK zoos have not been required to close, and if they remain open they must observe social distancing measures.

2 - DEFRA state that the only financial help available is that outlined already.

3 - DEFRA's position on furloughing staff is (and remains) contradictory

4 - a new Zoo Fund is being set up for those collections in 'severe financial stress' (no definition), for those having exhausted the list of potential help (this presumably means every single zoo in the UK). The fund is specifically to allow the dispersal of the animal collection - and is tailored to each instance. This presumably means that funds will be available for the receiving collection and not the 'failing' one, which is an interesting and very British twist.
 
Andrew Swales said:
We have this afternoon received communication from DEFRA on behalf of the UK Government.

The communication is in the form of a 15 page statement and a questionnaire.

The statement is contradictory in places, but its important points are:

1 - DEFRA state that UK zoos have not been required to close, and if they remain open they must observe social distancing measures.

2 - DEFRA state that the only financial help available is that outlined already.

3 - DEFRA's position on furloughing staff is (and remains) contradictory

4 - a new Zoo Fund is being set up for those collections in 'severe financial stress' (no definition), for those having exhausted the list of potential help (this presumably means every single zoo in the UK). The fund is specifically to allow the dispersal of the animal collection - and is tailored to each instance. This presumably means that funds will be available for the receiving collection and not the 'failing' one, which is an interesting and very British twist.
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How can they say that zoos have not been ordered to close when no one is allowed out of their homes or travel?!! An open zoo no one is allowed to visit.... Ridiculous!!
 
pipaluk said:
How can they say that zoos have not been ordered to close when no one is allowed out of their homes or travel?!! An open zoo no one is allowed to visit.... Ridiculous!!
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Mmmm....

Section 5, lifted without any edit:

'The government has published guidance specifying which businesses and venues must close. At present, zoos are not on the list of businesses and venues that have been ordered to close.'

'If you choose to remain open, it is important to ensure that social distancing is effectively implemented and monitored for both staff and visitors.'

(sorry, I forgot to mention - this document is dated 21-04-2020)
 
Andrew Swales said:
Mmmm....

Section 5, lifted without any edit:

'The government has published guidance specifying which businesses and venues must close. At present, zoos are not on the list of businesses and venues that have been ordered to close.'

'If you choose to remain open, it is important to ensure that social distancing is effectively implemented and monitored for both staff and visitors.'
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I guess the only advantage of this is the zoos can choose when to re-open, as soon as lock down ends by the look of it! But it is crazy to take the stance that the zoos haven't been forced to close when the public are ordered not to leave their homes!
 
pipaluk said:
I guess the only advantage of this is the zoos can choose when to re-open, as soon as lock down ends by the look of it! But it is crazy to take the stance that the zoos haven't been forced to close when the public are ordered not to leave their homes!
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I think the real reason is lobbying from the (very powerful) insurance industry. Forced Govt closure would have produced 'blame' rather than 'advice' which presumably would have led to successful insurance claims for business interruption. This way the Government can publically blame the insurance industry for not paying out, and the industry doesn't have to.
It's a win-win for them both and a lose-lose for us...
 
Andrew Swales said:
I think the real reason is lobbying from the (very powerful) insurance industry. Forced Govt closure would have produced 'blame' rather than 'advice' which presumably would have led to successful insurance claims for business interruption. This way the Government can publically blame the insurance industry for not paying out, and the industry doesn't have to.
It's a win-win for them both and a lose-lose for us...
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I think the word that comes to mind is corruption!!
 
Very illuminating from one point of view, and from another point this makes matters even cloudier than they already were! :p

I've posted a link to this thread into the "main" COVID-19 thread pertaining to zoos, given it has a bearing on the matter in question and some interested parties might not be checking the UK forum, but I reckon it's significant enough that it does merit a distinct thread too.
 
pipaluk said:
I think the word that comes to mind is corruption!!
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I think the government effectively had little choice -if their actions re coronavirus meant businesses, etc. could claim on their insurance policies I think it would have led to the collapse of the insurance sector (as they wouldn't be able to afford the inevitable flood or very large claims). For those who remember, think lloyds (names) on steroids and then on steroids again.

Obviously the collapse of the insurance sector can't be allowed to happen due to wider economic implications (in the same way the banking sector couldn't be allowed to collapse a decade and a bit ago) and the government wouldn't relish the amount of money that would have to be poured into the problem.

It's probably less corruption than there being no strong impetus to act any other way (sadly a common occurrence in many instances of bad policy/outcomes nowadays).
 
Andrew Swales said:
3 - DEFRA's position on furloughing staff is (and remains) contradictory
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Interested! Government guidance put out last Friday seemed to clear most outstanding queries so I'm interested what DEFRA might say (though government not being joined up is not that big news).
 
Shorts said:
the inevitable flood or very large claims).
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Not necessarily 'very' large as most policies limit/cap the payout for any one claim. Our own b-i policy for example limits the claim to £100,000, does not exclude any reason for claim, does not exclude pandemics, and specifically states and includes 'closure by Government or any authorised body, for any reason' - we did not decide to close, only did so after the 23rd March speech telling people to stay at home, and our gates are still open...
 
Andrew Swales said:
Not necessarily 'very' large as most policies limit/cap the payout for any one claim. Our own b-i policy for example limits the claim to £100,000, does not exclude any reason for claim, does not exclude pandemics, and specifically states and includes 'closure by Government or any authorised body, for any reason' - we did not decide to close, only did so after the 23rd March speech telling people to stay at home, and our gates are still open...
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OK, I'm willing to defy lock down rules and visit a zoo that isn't closed on Sunday as they are allowed to be open we will observe social distancing rules , with 2 friends for £150 donation! Any takers pm me!
 
pipaluk said:
OK, I'm willing to defy lock down rules and visit a zoo that isn't closed on Sunday as they are allowed to be open we will observe social distancing rules , with 2 friends for £150 donation! Any takers pm me!
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If you are serious, we will talk that over here. Our problem is that a positive and carefully nurtured social media relationship from our supporters, is our only source of income. We could not risk that for £150, so I think you may be just a little premature.

The bigger picture is # 4 above, the DEFRA 'Zoo Fund' which is by an evil twist is actually a fund to assist zoo closure and animal 're-homing' as a means of protecting animal welfare, rather than a fund to save zoos. Even their questionnaire has very leading and twisted questions, forwarded by a comment which effectively says if you opt out of completing it you are on your own and your voice will be ignored.

I have written to them asking for clarity on who is responsible for the negotiations with regard to the Government 're-homing' a failed Zoos animals, and how this will dovetail with breeding programmes, animal ownership, and the potential legal involvement of foreign Governments. It will be interesting too, to discover the position of banks and other creditors, when the 'failed' zoos animals are removed/re-homed depriving it of any ability to repay its debts. At the moment there is no evidence that DEFRA has any clue as to what it is doing, time will tell.

I cannot download it here, but can send the entire email to anyone who contacts the office; but we will need to know exactly who you are, not just the 'silly' name.
 
Andrew Swales said:
Not necessarily 'very' large as most policies limit/cap the payout for any one claim. Our own b-i policy for example limits the claim to £100,000, does not exclude any reason for claim, does not exclude pandemics, and specifically states and includes 'closure by Government or any authorised body, for any reason' - we did not decide to close, only did so after the 23rd March speech telling people to stay at home, and our gates are still open...
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Excuse me if I'm mis-understanding but does that mean you can claim (if it doesn't exclude pandemics) or do you still need government to tick the box?

Even a £100,000 limit claimed by say 10,000 businesses still adds up to a lot and that's before you include any policies by big business (I struggle to imagine what an valid insurance claim from a chain store would amount to).
 
Andrew Swales said:
I cannot download it here, but can send the entire email to anyone who contacts the office; but we will need to know exactly who you are, not just the 'silly' name.
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I believe I shall take you up on that.
 
Shorts said:
Excuse me if I'm mis-understanding but does that mean you can claim (if it doesn't exclude pandemics) or do you still need government to tick the box?
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No you are not misunderstanding, but we cannot claim. Pandemics over-ride ALL insurance policies from ALL companies as you state, even if they are not actually referred to at all in the policy - unless you listen to speculative legal advice to the contrary, but that of course comes at a (very high) price which if you could afford you wouldn't need to claim in the first place... Real life is much more complicated than most people realise, and justice is only available for the rich. Remember that we have been closed before, and had to shoulder six figure losses then because we could not fight for what everyone told us we were entitled to...
 
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Andrew Swales said:
We have this afternoon received communication from DEFRA on behalf of the UK Government.

The communication is in the form of a 15 page statement and a questionnaire.

The statement is contradictory in places, but its important points are:

1 - DEFRA state that UK zoos have not been required to close, and if they remain open they must observe social distancing measures.

2 - DEFRA state that the only financial help available is that outlined already.

3 - DEFRA's position on furloughing staff is (and remains) contradictory

4 - a new Zoo Fund is being set up for those collections in 'severe financial stress' (no definition), for those having exhausted the list of potential help (this presumably means every single zoo in the UK). The fund is specifically to allow the dispersal of the animal collection - and is tailored to each instance. This presumably means that funds will be available for the receiving collection and not the 'failing' one, which is an interesting and very British twist.
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Thanks for posting this... words actually fail me. I'm utterly appalled and my heart goes out to you, what a dreadful situation and you must feel so disheartened by the lack of 'official' support. I really do hope you, and other zoos, can survive this mess but it certainly won't be any thanks to the government!

I'm absolutely staggered by the statement that zoos have not been forced to close! Surely Police could - and arguably should - arrest and issue fines to anyone visiting a zoo, as it is not a legitimate reason to be out of their homes? In that context, how on earth could you justify opening?

Presumably all this means that as soon as lockdown measures are relaxed, we'll be seeing most if not all UK zoos re-open as soon as they can. I'm not sure I'll be comfortable visiting myself, but may well support my favourites in other ways if not.
 
Sand Cat said:
Thanks for posting this... words actually fail me. I'm utterly appalled and my heart goes out to you, what a dreadful situation and you must feel so disheartened by the lack of 'official' support. I really do hope you, and other zoos, can survive this mess but it certainly won't be any thanks to the government!

I'm absolutely staggered by the statement that zoos have not been forced to close! Surely Police could - and arguably should - arrest and issue fines to anyone visiting a zoo, as it is not a legitimate reason to be out of their homes? In that context, how on earth could you justify opening?

Presumably all this means that as soon as lockdown measures are relaxed, we'll be seeing most if not all UK zoos re-open as soon as they can. I'm not sure I'll be comfortable visiting myself, but may well support my favourites in other ways if not.
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I'll be visiting anywhere that's open, it will be safer than shopping!!
 
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