Unfair criticism of Melbourne and Werribee Zoos "ABC animals"

The issue is this a false choice. Large zoos can walk and chew gum at the same time. Their are countless examples in the United States of this. Woodland Park Zoo is one example. They hold rhino, giraffe, lion, snow leopard, tiger, sloth bear, gorilla, orangutan and more. They also have 125 species of bird on display. And you know what, they are about the same size as Melbourne. Cincinnati zoos smaller than Melbourne, yet a similar trend is seen. A zoo that holds plenty of larger animals in newer exhibits, yet also finds room for a significant collection of smaller mammals, birds, and reptiles.

The large species you list take a lot of care, elephants its often more than one keeper per elephant. Meanwhile birds and hoofstock require far less. Sylvan Heights Bird Park, one of the largest bird collections in the U.S. has only about a dozen keepers for the whole place. As well smaller mammals and birds need smaller spaces, as such one can maintain high species diversity in a smaller area.

No one on here is saying get rid of all the large mammals and replace them with birds or what you call small brown things. But we are saying that these zoos should focus on providing larger habitats for the select large species they hold, and also should house a wide variety of smaller animals. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Looking at Melbourne on google maps, they have plenty of underutilized land. Yes larger mammals will always bring more people through a door, yet I am firm believer that the purpose of these larger species is in some way to subsidize the more important programs with less popular species of animal.

If zoos simply seek to show what’s popular without concern for conservation and the rapidly changing world around them, then I fear they have lost much of their drive and purpose.

I completely agree with you:

I visited Woodland Park Zoo last year and I think it's arguably the best city-based zoo I've ever been to (across 5 different continents).

As for what you've said about larger mammal species subsidizing important conservation programs, this is exactly what Melbourne Zoo is already doing with smaller endangered species (Eastern barred bandicoot, Southern corroboree frog, mountain pygmy possum, orange bellied parrot, Tasmanian devil, helmeted honeyeater etc).

And this is precisely the reason why I'm a big advocate for displaying large high profile species first and foremost in large zoos that can afford to do so.

As for displaying birds, a large range of native birds already live wild at Melbourne Zoo (and Werribee Zoo) and this is why Zoos Victoria have less interest in displaying more birds.
 
In the interests of accuracy, Darling Downs Zoo does have a female Sumatran Tiger and have plans for a different sort of leopard that is more suitable to their climate - Sri Lankan leopards.
Correct also its very unlikely they would ever want to add Snow Leopards and Red pandas due to the extreme heat that region can get.As for other species mentioned one can only do so much in 15 years starting out from nothing!
 
Completely agree with you.

As birds are my primary interest, I was curious in comparing what I saw at Melbourne in 2018 and my trip to say Darling Downs Zoo three months ago. I was quite surprised with what I found! Of course, this isn’t a complete picture as I am positive I missed some bird species at Melbourne. What it does show is a ‘snapshot’ of each collection as a comparison in terms of breadth and diversity. A further note; Darling Downs Zoo is by no means only a bird sanctuary but also maintains a broad collection of around 106 species on display on my last count. Also, before anyone mentions that Healesville does have a better native bird collection, I am aware of that. That doesn’t justify Melbourne’s poor collection of exotic bird species though.

Melbourne Zoo – December 2018 – Approx. 45 Species


Bird Exhibits: A main walkthrough aviary and a handful of additional aviaries in the Australian Bush area; an Amazon aviary; two aviaries in the Trail of the Elephants; a brush turkey aviary; emu/kangaroo enclosure; conure enclosure in Treetop Apes and Monkeys; a penguin and pelican enclosure

Personal Highlights: Razor-billed Currasow, Great Green Macaw, Red-fronted Macaw

1. Southern Cassowary Casuarius casuarius johnsonii
2. Emu Dromaius novaehollandiae
3. Freckled Duck Stictonetta naevosa
4. Black Swan Cynus atratus
5. Blue-billed Duck Oxyura australis
6. Australian Brush Turkey Alectura lathami
7. Razor-billed Currasow Mitu tuberosum [euthanised June 2019]
8. Helmeted Guineafowl Numida meleagris
9. Pacific Emerald Dove Chalcophaps longiostris
10. Squatter Pigeon Geophaps scripta
11. Wonga Pigeon Leucosarcia melanoleuca
12. Diamond Dove Geopelia cuneata
13. Torresian Imperial-Pigeon Ducula spilorrhoa
14. Tawny Frogmouth Podargus strigodes
15. Buff-banded Rail Gallirallus philippensis
16. Bush Stone Curlew Burhinus grallarius
17. Pied Stilt Himantopus leucocephalus
18. Australian Little Penguin Eudyptula minor
19. Black-necked Stork Ephippioorhynchus asiaticus
20. Little Pied Cormorant Phalacrocorax melanoleucos
21. Australian Pelican Pelecanus conspicillatus
22. White-faced Heron Egretta novaehollandiae
23. Pied Heron Egretta picata
24. Eastern Cattle Egret Bubulcus ibis
25. Glossy Ibis Plegadis falcinellus
26. Royal Spoonbill Platalea regia
27. Blue-winged Kookaburra Dacelo leachii [signed but not seen]
28. Red-tailed Black Cockatoo Calyptorhynchus banksii
29. Eclectus Parrot Eclectus roratus
30. Budgerigar Melopsittacus undulatus
31. Red-collared Lorikeet Trichoglossus rubritorquis
32. Timneh Grey Parrot Psittacus timneh
33. Crimson-bellied Conure Pyrrhura perlata
34. Great Green Macaw Ara ambigua
35. Green-winged Macaw Ara chloropterus
36. Red-fronted Macaw Ara rubrogenys
37. Blue-fronted Amazon Amazona aestiva [signed but not seen]
38. Black-capped Caique Pionites melanocephalus [signed but not seen]
39. White-bellied Caique Pionites leucogaster [signed but not seen]
40. Noisy Pitta Pitta versicolor
41. Blue-faced Honeyeater Entomyzon cyanotis
42. White-browed Woodswallow Artamus superciliosus
43. Zebra Finch Taeniopygia guttata
44. Gouldian Finch Erythrura gouldiae
45. Java Sparrow Lonchura oryzivora

Darling Downs Zoo – February 2020 – Approx. 58 Bird Species

Exhibits: Approximately 17 individual aviaries ranging from a large waterbird/turtle aviary to smaller aviaries for exotic parrots with tamarin/agouti mixes; around five-six waterbird enclosures for pelicans and other waterfowl; large paddocks for Ostrich and Emu; a new aviary is also under construction near the future Sri Lankan leopard enclosure presumably for Asian species.

Personal Highlights: Australian Bustard, Pheasants, Owls, Rufous Night-heron

1. Ostrich Struthio camelus
2. Emu Dromaius novaehollandiae
3. Plumed Whistling Duck Dendrocygna eytoni
4. Wandering Whistling Duck Dendrocygna arcuata
5. Cape Barren Goose Cereopsis novaehollandiae
6. Black Swan Cynus atratus
7. Rajah Shelduck Radjah radjah
8. Ruddy Shelduck Tadorna ferruginea
9. Mandarin Duck Aix galericulata
10. Hardhead Aythya australis
11. Golden Pheasant Chrysolophus pictus
12. Lady Amherst’s Pheasant Chrysolophus amherstiae
13. Ring-necked Pheasant Phasianus colchicus
14. Kalij Pheasant Lophura leucomelanos
15. White-headed Pigeon Columba leucomela
16. Pacific Emerald Dove Chalcophaps longiostris
17. Spinifex Pigeon Geophaps plumifera
18. Wonga Pigeon Leucosarcia melanoleuca
19. Nicobar Pigeon Caloenas nicobarica
20. Luzon Bleeding-Heart Dove Gallicolumba luzonica
21. Rose-crowned Fruit-Dove Ptilinopus regina
22. Topknot Pigeon Lopholaimus antarcticus
23. Australian Bustard Ardeotis australis
24. Purple Swamphen Porphyrio melanotus
25. Bush Stone Curlew Burhinus grallarius
26. Pied Stilt Himantopus leucocephalus
27. Banded Lapwing Vanellus tricolor [signed but not seen]
28. Masked Lapwing Vanellus miles
29. Australian Pelican Pelecanus conspicillatus
30. Rufous Night Heron Nycticorax caledonicus
31. Glossy Ibis Plegadis falcinellus
32. Royal Spoonbill Platalea regia
33. Barking Owl Ninox connivens
34. Eastern Grass Owl Tyto longimembris
35. Eastern Barn Owl Tyto delicatula
36. Laughing Kookaburra Dacelo novaeguineae
37. Nankeen Kestrel Falco cenchroides
38. Red-tailed Black Cockatoo Calyptorhynchus banksii samuelli
39. Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo Calyptorhynchus funereus
40. Gang-gang Cockatoo Callocephalon fimbriatum
41. Galah Eolophus roseicapillus
42. Long-billed Corella Cacatua tenuirostris
43. Sulphur-crested Cockatoo Cacatua galerita
44. Australian King Parrot Alisterus scapularis
45. Crimson-winged Parrot Aprosmictus erythropterus
46. Eclectus Parrot Eclectus roratus
47. Budgerigar Melopsittacus undulatus
48. African Grey Parrot Psittacus erithacus
49. Yellow-crowned Amazon Amazona ochrocephala
50. Blue-fronted Amazon Amazona aestiva
51. Sun Conure Aratinga solstitialis
52. Blue and Gold Macaw Ara ararauna
53. Green-winged Macaw Ara chloropterus
54. Scarlet Macaw Ara macao
55. Noisy Pitta Pitta versicolor
56. Regent Bowerbird Ptilonorhynchus chrysocephalus
57. Eastern Whipbird Psophodes olivaceus
58. White-browed Woodswallow Artamus superciliosus

Since your last visit the following species have departed or I never knew were in the collection and have never seen them signed.

Squatter Pigeon
Buff Banded Rail
Red Collared Lorikeet
Tinnmeh Grey Parrot
Blue Fronted Amazon
Razor Billed Cussarow
Australian Brush Turkey


Species gained since your last visit

Orange Bellied Parrot (already present at Healesville and Werribee)
Regent Honeyeater (Already present at Healesville)
 
Sadly much of the large mammal collection at Melbourne Zoo will not be around for much longer. (Solitary Malayan Tapair, solitary pygmy Hippo, Phillipines crocodile, aging and inbred peccaries - only ones in the region...) not to mention the Hippos at Werribee without a breeding male...
I would have a greater appreciation of Melbourne Zoos collection if they had actually imported some large mammals in the last ten years. They are one of the better funded zoos in the region and yet their exotic collection is in decline. The IRA for importing hippos (both species) has been bogged down for years and at the rate it is going the the animals in MZ collection will be post reproductive or dead.
I fully appreciate that large mammals ( the ABCs) can drive visitation, especially amongst children. I also understand that they are expensive to keep and to import into the country. If a small privately run zoo (Darling Downs) can import 10 zebra, 6 red handed tamarins, 2 imports of giant tortoise, red rumped agouti, and soon Sri Lanka leopard, (all off the top of my head) what is Melbourne Zoos excuse?
 
Sadly much of the large mammal collection at Melbourne Zoo will not be around for much longer. (Solitary Malayan Tapair, solitary pygmy Hippo, Phillipines crocodile, aging and inbred peccaries - only ones in the region...) not to mention the Hippos at Werribee without a breeding male...
I would have a greater appreciation of Melbourne Zoos collection if they had actually imported some large mammals in the last ten years. They are one of the better funded zoos in the region and yet their exotic collection is in decline. The IRA for importing hippos (both species) has been bogged down for years and at the rate it is going the the animals in MZ collection will be post reproductive or dead.
I fully appreciate that large mammals ( the ABCs) can drive visitation, especially amongst children. I also understand that they are expensive to keep and to import into the country. If a small privately run zoo (Darling Downs) can import 10 zebra, 6 red handed tamarins, 2 imports of giant tortoise, red rumped agouti, and soon Sri Lanka leopard, (all off the top of my head) what is Melbourne Zoos excuse?
This is all true and more. @Grant Rhino do you still believe the criticism is unfair?. @kiwimuzz also Baboons from Poland, Lions from South Africa. Emperor Tamarins from Europe
 
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And this is precisely the reason why I'm a big advocate for displaying large high profile species first and foremost in large zoos that can afford to do so..

Grant Rhino, I can't help but feel like you keep missing the point here. I don't think a single person on this forum has lamented the fact that Zoos Victoria (or any Australian zoo) keeps "big attraction" animals. What we are complaining about is the fact that they are shifting towards ONLY keeping big attraction animals.

It's not about one vs the other.
 
And how is this the fault of Zoos Victoria?
Umm.... as the only holder of both species in the country and holding only single sex groups of both species i would have expected far more advocacy from Zoos Victoria to ensure the completion of the IRA and the eventual importation. (But this isn't only a failing of just Zoos Victoria. Taronga and Adelaide have the resources and industry clout to also advocate for Hippo importation )
 
If a small privately run zoo (Darling Downs) can import 10 zebra, 6 red handed tamarins, 2 imports of giant tortoise, red rumped agouti, and soon Sri Lanka leopard, (all off the top of my head) what is Melbourne Zoos excuse?

With all due respect, I don't see why Melbourne Zoo needs an "excuse" for not importing every species of animal under the sun.

However, if Melbourne Zoo really does need an excuse then I offer the following:

1. Their excuse for not importing animals is that they already have animals. They don't need to import zebra because they already have zebra. They don't need to import tamarins because they already have tamarins. They don't need to import tortoises because they already have tortoises.

Fair enough on the agoutis though - there is no excuse for not importing agoutis. But if this is the biggest problem with the zoo then that's a great problem to have...

2. Darling Downs are GOING TO import Sri Lankan leopards - great, I applaud this. However, Melbourne Zoo have ALREADY imported snow leopards: a female called Mishka from the UK, and a male from Germany. These snow leopards have already bred and produced 3 cubs.

Despite this, there is so much praise on this forum for DDZ because of what they are GOING TO DO (import leopards), yet at the same time, MZ have ALREADY imported 2 new snow leopards and BRED THEM.... and MZ are still being criticised for not importing animals.

This is the type of double standard which is rife on this forum when it comes to MZ and WORZ. They have already done what DDZ are going to do, and while DDZ are being praised, MZ are being criticised.

Maybe they should just import agoutis..... and red handed tamarins....
 
This is all true and more. @Grant Rhino do you still believe the criticism is unfair?. @kiwimuzz also Baboons from Poland, Lions from South Africa. Emperor Tamarins from Europe

Yes - I do think the criticism is unfair:

It's very easy to see all of the great things the smaller zoos are doing because they have started with far less. However, most of the animals they are importing are the same species or very similar species to what the big zoos already have.

The large state-run zoos already have more species (and more money) and I feel that they are being criticised far too much for what they are not doing, without the due acknowledgement for what they are doing and for what they have already done. Do the big zoos simply have to import 3 new species each and every year to keep people happy?

As I just said earlier, DDZ are being praised because they are "going to" import Sri Lankan leopards, yet MZ have already imported snow leopards and bred them - where is the praise for this? This is just a complete double standard....
 
Grant Rhino, I can't help but feel like you keep missing the point here. I don't think a single person on this forum has lamented the fact that Zoos Victoria (or any Australian zoo) keeps "big attraction" animals. What we are complaining about is the fact that they are shifting towards ONLY keeping big attraction animals.

It's not about one vs the other.

Trust me, I'm not missing the point - I simply don't agree with it:

As I've said numerous times on this thread, I think that it is great to have a few small obscure species in zoos alongside the high profile species. I think this makes for a great point of difference in any zoo. A great case in point are the dusky leaf langurs at Adelaide Zoo or the silvery gibbons at Mogo.

However,

If a zoo simply keeps importing new obscure species constantly then they are either going to die out (if they are bachelor groups), get inbred (if they are the only group in the country), or breed - and then every single zoo in the country is going to have them and then ZooChatters will start viewing them the same way they view meerkats - ie they get sick of them....

The point I am making is that it is not as simple as a lot of people seem to think that it is. I have spoken to the powers that be at various zoos about these things and they are not as simple as many people present them - as you yourself clearly know.
 
Trust me, I'm not missing the point - I simply don't agree with it:

As I've said numerous times on this thread, I think that it is great to have a few small obscure species in zoos alongside the high profile species. I think this makes for a great point of difference in any zoo. A great case in point are the dusky leaf langurs at Adelaide Zoo or the silvery gibbons at Mogo.

However,

If a zoo simply keeps importing new obscure species constantly then they are either going to die out (if they are bachelor groups), get inbred (if they are the only group in the country), or breed - and then every single zoo in the country is going to have them and then ZooChatters will start viewing them the same way they view meerkats - ie they get sick of them....

The point I am making is that it is not as simple as a lot of people seem to think that it is. I have spoken to the powers that be at various zoos about these things and they are not as simple as many people present them - as you yourself clearly know.
You are entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to theirs. But I do feel you are moving away from the main discourse you started out on with the argument that MZ/WORZ already have "the" species. Perhaps we have taken that as far as it can go.

What you are talking about right here (and in the other reply above it) about species already being on site at MZ /WORZ is all well and good for the megafauna animal collection, but does nothing to shy away from the facts and figures that overall there has been a trend in declining total number of animal species exhibited at both zoos. That lack of diversity (and I am now only considering the mammals here) and the large areas given over to where visitors have nothing much to keep the average punter "occupied" between these is not a zoo grounded for the future.

I really am very much convinced - and can testify by personal experience evidenced from many exchanges with visitors and the general zoo visiting public - that most visitors - and not just the Zoochat "hordes" - do love to see lots of animals and many different animal species, meaning mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates et cetera, when trodding along leisurely through a zoo. In the end, the job of a good zoo is to have a representative animal collection and that surely is not an mammal A-B-C laced variety - for lack of a better description - as some commercial managers, marketing and PR people would like us to believe. It is that sense of wonder that makes us and them tick!

Now the argument of financial clout and that by having a good collection of A-B-C species big zoos are able to make a significant contribution to wildlife conservation and also for the little brown jobs. Any zoo can have some of the A-B-C species, not hold any they cannot maintain on their premises and still manage to have a diverse animal collection with both big, large and tiny or less sexy yet fascinating animal species within their collections and holding the full compliment (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians et cetera) without being heavily uneven towards one fylum over any of the others) and still run good financial figures and make a significant contribution to wildlife conservation or recovery programs in situ for endangered and threatened species (like the ones you mentioned that primarily Healesville is involved with).

The other point you are bringing in really has very much to do with overall animal and genetic management of the Australian zoo populations of various species and also those in conservation breeding programs. Now, it may be that bureaucracy or politics are preventing from any IRA's coming through fast and furious as many on here have complained about the laborious and decades consuming nature almost of any IRA coming full circle to actual imports. But to keep its populations of individual exotic species healthy all Australian and New Zealand zoos will and do need to import animal species they hold in their collections in order to maintain some level of genetic health and diversity in their exotic animal species under management.

Admittedly, this subject really has been discussed at length before when new species were taken on by one or other zoo. Many times in stead of the entire ZAA zoo community coming on board to manage a new to be established population effectively and welcome the changes and interest this will generate, it almost seems an inexplicable lacklustre attitude prevails with some others to not following through with providing adequate space and facilities. The almost inevitable net end result be that populations have been withering away and at long last when the population is too old or long in the tooth they are simply denoted as phase out - which might be interpreted effectively as a failure to do proper animal population management in the first place -.

This pertains not only to what most of us Zoochatters would call the diversity range of species like Malayan tapir, pygmy hippo, leaf monkeys of various species (dusky, silvered ..), mandrill and even snow leopards (even though in my view they are less suited to the Australian arid environment / not so Kiwi New Zealand though). It equally applies to A-B-C species like common hippo, giraffe of purebred origins, various larger hoof stock like f.i. sable antelope and some of the rhino species (just to restrict myself to herbivores for now).
 
As I just said earlier, DDZ are being praised because they are "going to" import Sri Lankan leopards, yet MZ have already imported snow leopards and bred them - where is the praise for this? This is just a complete double standard....

Melbourne Zoo have held Snow leopard since 1982, so the import of their current breeding pair was simply a case of them continuing to hold the species. If I recall, several people mentioned at the time of their import (and subsequent breeding) it was good to see Melbourne Zoo sustaining the regional population of this species - especially when others facilities have phased them out (or are looking to).

Darling Downs Zoo are being rightly praised for their ambition to be one of the founding holding facilities of Sri Lankan leopard in the region - a pioneering achievement.

This import is the subject of high interest because:

A) The initiative of any facility to import a new felid in the face of multiple phase outs is much welcome.

B) We all much admire Darling Downs Zoo (a small, privately owned zoo) for consistently taking the initiative to assist in reviving species neglected by the mainstream zoos. Like you say, it's good to give praise where praise is due; and if they pull this off, I can guarantee you'll be hearing about it for a long time in these forums. :)
 
Enclosure became inacsessible, brush turkey never seen and it isn't listed on the map anymore.

I definitely recall seeing them at least in Spring of last year. The average lifespan of an Australian Brush Turkey is 10 years, and that individuals been there since Growing Wild opened in 2012, so it’s likely if the individual is gone; that it died of old age.
 
With all due respect, I don't see why Melbourne Zoo needs an "excuse" for not importing every species of animal under the sun.

However, if Melbourne Zoo really does need an excuse then I offer the following:

1. Their excuse for not importing animals is that they already have animals. They don't need to import zebra because they already have zebra. They don't need to import tamarins because they already have tamarins. They don't need to import tortoises because they already have tortoises.

Fair enough on the agoutis though - there is no excuse for not importing agoutis. But if this is the biggest problem with the zoo then that's a great problem to have...

2. Darling Downs are GOING TO import Sri Lankan leopards - great, I applaud this. However, Melbourne Zoo have ALREADY imported snow leopards: a female called Mishka from the UK, and a male from Germany. These snow leopards have already bred and produced 3 cubs.

Despite this, there is so much praise on this forum for DDZ because of what they are GOING TO DO (import leopards), yet at the same time, MZ have ALREADY imported 2 new snow leopards and BRED THEM.... and MZ are still being criticised for not importing animals.

This is the type of double standard which is rife on this forum when it comes to MZ and WORZ. They have already done what DDZ are going to do, and while DDZ are being praised, MZ are being criticised.

Maybe they should just import agoutis..... and red handed tamarins....
You state they MZ dont need to import Zebras but a state funded zoo should be importing new bloodlines, the zebras they have would be a fair bit in bred as are many here so why cant they import new bloodlines, If a small regional zoo can import what I believe was the largest ever single import of Zebras into Australia why are MZ not doing so even though you state they dont need to but in fact they do need to do so, Since DDZ importation they have not only bred quite a few young some have been sent to other zoos around the country so they are gaining from this also, lets not look through rose coloured glasses
 
You state they MZ dont need to import Zebras but a state funded zoo should be importing new bloodlines, the zebras they have would be a fair bit in bred as are many here so why cant they import new bloodlines, If a small regional zoo can import what I believe was the largest ever single import of Zebras into Australia why are MZ not doing so even though you state they dont need to but in fact they do need to do so, Since DDZ importation they have not only bred quite a few young some have been sent to other zoos around the country so they are gaining from this also, lets not look through rose coloured glasses

Well I will take off my rose coloured glasses and say this: While DDZ are importing new bloodlines of zebra and other zoos are gaining from this, around 2 years ago WORZ (run by Zoos Victoria, just like MZ) imported a group of Nyala. Since then, the nyala have bred and other zoos now have some too.... as is the case with DDZ and the zebras.....

As I keep saying, there is so much focus on what MZ and WORZ are not doing and almost nothing said about what they are doing.... In fact, there is so little said that I completely forgot about the nyala importation until earlier today....

And just on that, the importation wasn't easy at all - as the nyala had to go via New Zealand (from Singapore if my memory serves me correctly) due to the hoofed stock restrictions.

Maybe ZV should've made more of a song and dance about importing the nyala...

And while I'm at it, I'd hardly call nyala a high profile species or an ABC species... In fact, before they imported them I had to actually do a search on Google to see what they looked like (which I do admit is a bit embarrassing....).

As for the "inbred bloodlines" of zebra, how do you know they're inbred? Do you have a source for this or is it just an assumption? And secondly, if DDZ are importing them then why does ZV need to do the same thing at the same time? As you've said, the new bloodlines imported by DDZ will serve the whole national population to some degree. MZ did their bit by importing new snow leopards - hence they are already doing their bit...
 
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