Food Outlets and Picnic Tables at UK Zoos During Covid

Andrew Swales said:
Could anyone who has been since the re-opening tell me the distance between any of the take-out food outlets and the nearest picnic bench, where you could sit and eat what you had purchased?
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I can take a guess for you. The closest would probably be from the small temporary kiosk in front of the Jaguar Coffee House to one of the nearby picnic benches, and a similar distance from the new ice cream kiosk to the benches where the Jubilee Square monorail station used to be. Both perhaps a little over two meters.

You can see a picture of the latter here: Jubilee Square - 16/06/2020 - ZooChat
 
SMR said:
I can take a guess for you. The closest would probably be from the small temporary kiosk in front of the Jaguar Coffee House to one of the nearby picnic benches, and a similar distance from the new ice cream kiosk to the benches where the Jubilee Square monorail station used to be. Both perhaps a little over two meters.

You can see a picture of the latter here: Jubilee Square - 16/06/2020 - ZooChat
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Thank you very much, I thought so.
At Hamerton we modelled much of our opening system of what has been done at Chester, as we knew it had formal written approval from their LA.
After 3 days of member entry - on our first public day, which went really well, we have formal confirmation from our LA today that this is illegal. So our Coffee-Shop will continue to offer a limited take-out menu, but it is illegal to eat/drink it on our benches, and you must take it back to your car and eat it there. You will be quite welcome to bring your own picnics to the Park, but these will have to be eaten from the ground as we have been required to remove our picnic benches.
 
There's clearly some inconsistency here: at Twycross on Monday there were plenty of benches in use for food purchased on the premises, and also for those (like myself) who brought their own food.
 
robmv said:
There's clearly some inconsistency here: at Twycross on Monday there were plenty of benches in use for food purchased on the premises, and also for those (like myself) who brought their own food.
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That appears to be illegal - this is what we've been quoted by our LA today - my italics:

Requirement to close premises and businesses during the emergency
4.—(1) A person responsible for carrying on a business which is listed in Part 1 of Schedule 2 must—
(a)during the emergency period—
(i)close any premises, or part of the premises, in which food or drink are sold for consumption on those premises, and
(ii)cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises; or
(b)if the business sells food or drink for consumption off the premises, cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises during the emergency period.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), food or drink sold by a hotel or other accommodation as part of room service is not to be treated as being sold for consumption on its premises.
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a)(ii) and (b), an area adjacent to the premises of the business where seating is made available for customers of the business (whether or not by the business) is to be treated as part of the premises of that business.
 
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Andrew Swales said:
That appears to be illegal - this is what we've been quoted by our LA today - my italics:

Requirement to close premises and businesses during the emergency
4.—(1) A person responsible for carrying on a business which is listed in Part 1 of Schedule 2 must—
(a)during the emergency period—
(i)close any premises, or part of the premises, in which food or drink are sold for consumption on those premises, and
(ii)cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises; or
(b)if the business sells food or drink for consumption off the premises, cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises during the emergency period.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), food or drink sold by a hotel or other accommodation as part of room service is not to be treated as being sold for consumption on its premises.
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a)(ii) and (b), an area adjacent to the premises of the business where seating is made available for customers of the business (whether or not by the business) is to be treated as part of the premises of that business.
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The zoos might be open again but clearly the nonsense rules they have to follow will continue for a while yet!!
 
Andrew Swales said:
So our Coffee-Shop will continue to offer a limited take-out menu, but it is illegal to eat/drink it on our benches, and you must take it back to your car and eat it there. You will be quite welcome to bring your own picnics to the Park, but these will have to be eaten from the ground as we have been required to remove our picnic benches.
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So food/drink you sell can't be eaten on the ground, the same as picnic food brought in?
 
Andrew Swales said:
That appears to be illegal - this is what we've been quoted by our LA today - my italics:

Requirement to close premises and businesses during the emergency
4.—(1) A person responsible for carrying on a business which is listed in Part 1 of Schedule 2 must—
(a)during the emergency period—
(i)close any premises, or part of the premises, in which food or drink are sold for consumption on those premises, and
(ii)cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises; or
(b)if the business sells food or drink for consumption off the premises, cease selling food or drink for consumption on its premises during the emergency period.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), food or drink sold by a hotel or other accommodation as part of room service is not to be treated as being sold for consumption on its premises.
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a)(ii) and (b), an area adjacent to the premises of the business where seating is made available for customers of the business (whether or not by the business) is to be treated as part of the premises of that business.
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I don't understand why people would have to go to their car with anything they have purchased as long as you are not providing seating adjacent to the coffee shop. If I am remembering correctly that would be the area of undercover picnic benches for yourselves? I don't see anything in what is written there that would include the other benches you have around the park or that would preclude someone just walking around / picnicking on the floor with their take-out.

Edit to also say - all the other zoo's I have looked at that are offering take out food from their kiosks etc do not mention having to eat it outside the park.
 
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Zia said:
I don't understand why people would have to go to their car with anything they have purchased as long as you are not providing seating adjacent to the coffee shop. If I am remembering correctly that would be the area of undercover picnic benches for yourselves? I don't see anything in what is written there that would include the other benches you have around the park or that would preclude someone just walking around / picnicking on the floor with their take-out.
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Yes that is possible, but as we stand today, they will not define adjacent, and our H/S consultants have interpreted it to mean leaving the zoo property, ie sitting in their own vehicle. I think in the short-term we will remove all the benches, so people cannot sit down, other than on the ground (which is pretty soggy today!), and advise them if they want to be more comfortable they should go back to their car. A good old English fudge. Going forward it would still be useful to know what is being done in other paces, with pictures if possible. A dossier of information to defend a decision in the absence of legal clarity - seems to be the way of the world we live in now.

Zia said:
Edit to also say - all the other zoo's I have looked at that are offering take out food from their kiosks etc do not mention having to eat it outside the park.
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I have just heard that Shepreth have installed benches in the car park as you cannot eat food on site, but am not sure if that is their food or picnics.
 
Pertinax said:
So food/drink you sell can't be eaten on the ground, the same as picnic food brought in?
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I'm not sure... but no, not according to nos 4.1 to 4.3 of their list above, once we have a definition of whether adjacent means less than 2m as at Chester or possibly the whole zoo site here, according to our H/S consultants...
I guess once pubs and restaurants are open, this will be history - but it does make the next few weeks rather confusing - and, of course, they have the power of unlimited fines and a prohibition notice...
 
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Andrew Swales said:
I guess once pubs and restaurants are open, this will be history - but it does make the next few weeks rather confusing - and, of course, they have the power of unlimited fines and a prohibition notice...
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You are right, when hospitality rules are ironed out more, things will be a lot clearer, in the meantime you are the guineapigs....
 
Pertinax said:
You are right, when hospitality rules are ironed out more, things will be a lot clearer, in the meantime you are the guineapigs....
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Yes - it looks a though the big boys with clout with their local authorities will be allowed to make money from their catering whilst those of us without such relationships, will not... good job the five new Coffee-Shop staff we've just taken on, are on zero-hours contracts...!
 
Andrew Swales said:
...good job the five new Coffee-Shop staff we've just taken on, are on zero-hours contracts...!
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Although not for them, although that's a different issue entirely.

The only other place I have visited since restrictions have been partially relaxed was a National Trust property, and all their picnic benches were on top of one-another and taped off. However, their normal benches were not.

I wonder also, if anyone has considered what the ramifications are from an accessibility standpoint if all the places (other than the floor) that one can sit down on are removed. That could be seen as discriminating against people with limited mobility.
 
SMR said:
Although not for them, although that's a different issue entirely..
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Yes - some of them they would not have been hired at all if the Council had been in touch prior to opening, as they had every time there had been a (negative) change in the past. As it is, unless the shop takes enough to cover their wages, their wages cannot be covered.
 
I've been to Howletts and Port Lympne this week and all the picnic benches appeared to be in pretty much the same places they usually are outside all the food outlets (perhaps slightly more spread out). Obviously all indoor tables were out of use but in most cases you had to order inside.
 
Thank you very much - a list is building up, but it does seem as though the large zoos are being allowed by their local authorities to break what is a very clear law, and the small zoos are not.

What a good job that LA's were not given the right to decide which zoos opened and which didn't, as some were calling for..! The discrimination might give us the chance to lodge an insurance claim, we'll have to see...
 
The problem is laws are open to interpretation and your local authority seems to be taking it to the absolute letter!

If you're not eating what you've purchased on the premises, it is takeaway, but most sensible people would treat the 'premises' as being the outlet where it was bought, not the zoo itself, which Huntingdon and South Cambs councils don't seem to be able to grasp!
 
pipaluk said:
If you're not eating what you've purchased on the premises, it is takeaway, but most sensible people would treat the 'premises' as being the outlet where it was bought, not the zoo itself, which Huntingdon and South Cambs councils don't seem to be able to grasp!
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Certainly seems like that is precisely what is going on......
 
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