IUCN Standard to support global action on invasive alien species

[birdsandbats]

We are probably not going to agree on the 10% of this issue where we differ. In the United States I believe invasive species have increased biodiversity...on balance. There are winners and losers, certainly. On Islands (Hawaii, New Zealand) ok...I generally agree that invasive species can be fairly catastrophic. On continents, in terrestrial environments...I just don’t agree. And I think the urgency in which money and science are used to “correct” the problem is just wrong. Example: Mountain Goats in the Olympic Mountains.

Now I know it is not a popular opinion and one could even argue that it is wrong...what it is not is uninformed. But it is just my opinion. I have almost no influence to affect environmental policy so we should not get to excited about it.

But I like the fact that pythons live in Florida, Banteng are secure in Australia, Dromedaries live as fully wild animals in the Outback, and one can occasionally see Emus along the backroads of Texas. Environments change and species adapt and the movement of species across the planet...wether it is facilitated by continental drift, rafting, wind blown flight, or human transportation is a natural occurrence.

Mountain Goats in the Olympic Mountains spread diseases to the native Bighorn Sheep and destroy sensitive vegetation growing on the mountainside.

Pythons in Florida are some of the worst invasives out there! Mammals are nearly entirely absent from the Everglades as of now, and this problem will only get worse. Florida Panthers will probably never recover, Red Wolves will never be able to be reintroduced.

I don't much about the Bantengs in Australia but given how sensitive the Australian ecosystems are I can't imagine they are doing any good.

Dromedaries destroy desert vegetation and watering holes.

All of these animals are causing loss in biodiversity, not gain. No matter how 'informed' you claim to be, these opinions really discredit anything you say in my mind.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I don't see how anybody could ever argue that the introductions of taxa such as feral cats, feral pigs, mongoose, pythons, or Cane Toads are beneficial to the ecosystems they have been destroying for decades, sometimes centuries now. I'm sure the native species that have gone extinct or are on the brink would disagree that the problem is overblown.

~Thylo

 

[JurassicMax]

The thing that most people don't understand is the fact that we (humans) are determining which species are invasive and which ones aren't. I believe that species that have migrated to a 'new' area without human help/influence should be left alone. The only exception would be if that certain area would contain critically endangered species, that without human intervention would go extinct. I think that we as humans have the responseability to take care of this planet, by (among others) fixing our mistakes of introducing non-native species.
A nice example for my first statement would be the newly discorved ant species in The Netherlands, the Dolichoderus quadripunctatus scientists were happy. However when I read the comments I saw a whole discussion about the word 'exotic' and quite a few people were already claiming that this would become a pest/invasive species...

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The thing that most people don't understand is the fact that we (humans) are determining which species are invasive and which ones aren't. I believe that species that have migrated to a 'new' area without human help/influence should be left alone.

A good example of this is the newer animal rights lobbied EU laws on invasive species, which includes bird species which are naturally colonizing parts of Europe (or re-colonizing, since for many they're simply returning to former areas of their range where they were extirpated) as invasive species.

~Thylo

 

[birdsandbats]

The thing that most people don't understand is the fact that we (humans) are determining which species are invasive and which ones aren't. I believe that species that have migrated to a 'new' area without human help/influence should be left alone. The only exception would be if that certain area would contain critically endangered species, that without human intervention would go extinct. I think that we as humans have the responseability to take care of this planet, by (among others) fixing our mistakes of introducing non-native species.
A nice example for my first statement would be the newly discorved ant species in The Netherlands, the Dolichoderus quadripunctatus scientists were happy. However when I read the comments I saw a whole discussion about the word 'exotic' and quite a few people were already claiming that this would become a pest/invasive species...

A good example of this is the newer animal rights lobbied EU laws on invasive species, which includes bird species which are naturally colonizing parts of Europe (or re-colonizing, since for many they're simply returning to former areas of their range where they were extirpated) as invasive species.

~Thylo

Recently, there have been several Asian marine invertebrate species that have colonized the Pacific coast of North America. These species got these by riding debris from tsunamis. They are slightly changing the ecosystem, but there are no major effects. But there are extermination programs. In this case, I think these species should be left alone. They got there on their own, and storms are one of the ways species disperse naturally. I think these species should be left alone. Only species moved by humans should be exterminated. Similarly, I would be in favor of Smooth-billed Ani reintroduction to Florida, for example, and I think Cattle Egrets have a place in North America. Those recent EU invasive species laws are ridiculous in my mind and are threatening biodiversity, as are those Pacific invert extermination programs.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Mountain Goats in the Olympic Mountains spread diseases to the native Bighorn Sheep and destroy sensitive vegetation growing on the mountainside.

Pythons in Florida are some of the worst invasives out there! Mammals are nearly entirely absent from the Everglades as of now, and this problem will only get worse. Florida Panthers will probably never recover, Red Wolves will never be able to be reintroduced.

I don't much about the Bantengs in Australia but given how sensitive the Australian ecosystems are I can't imagine they are doing any good.

Dromedaries destroy desert vegetation and watering holes.

All of these animals are causing loss in biodiversity, not gain. No matter how 'informed' you claim to be, these opinions really discredit anything you say in my mind.

Well said !

I don't see how anybody could ever argue that the introductions of taxa such as feral cats, feral pigs, mongoose, pythons, or Cane Toads are beneficial to the ecosystems they have been destroying for decades, sometimes centuries now. I'm sure the native species that have gone extinct or are on the brink would disagree that the problem is overblown.

~Thylo

Totally agree with you on this.

The thing that most people don't understand is the fact that we (humans) are determining which species are invasive and which ones aren't. I believe that species that have migrated to a 'new' area without human help/influence should be left alone. The only exception would be if that certain area would contain critically endangered species, that without human intervention would go extinct. I think that we as humans have the responseability to take care of this planet, by (among others) fixing our mistakes of introducing non-native species.
A nice example for my first statement would be the newly discorved ant species in The Netherlands, the Dolichoderus quadripunctatus scientists were happy. However when I read the comments I saw a whole discussion about the word 'exotic' and quite a few people were already claiming that this would become a pest/invasive species...

Yes, I agree with you, it is a complex issue indeed and the words "exotic" and "native" are very loaded when it comes to the debate surrounding this topic.

Climate change is and will continue to facilitate the range expansion of many species outside of their native ranges but I don't know if this can necessarily be called "natural" as such because again it is anthropogenically induced range expansion.

There is actually also a conservation management strategy known as "assisted translocation" which involved taking endangered species of animals and plants that are threatened with imminent extinction due to climate change and moving them to suitable areas outside of their natural range.

It is quite a controversial topic within conservation biology and there are a lot of opponents, however, I believe assisted translocation / colonization will become more a standard management strategy over the course of this century. In the case of species such as the tuatuara I can't really see any other option than this and of course I support these efforts 100%.

 

[Pleistohorse]

So....we seem to be in agreement that knee-jerk dogmatism towards “invasive” species can at times be counter to legitimate conservation goals (even if the colonization is facilitated by human agency or effect) and that in any case we should examine fully the effects of a new organism introduced into a previously unoccupied environment before we immediately resort to eradication...because sometimes the dogmatic hysteria is overblown and again contrary the spirit of conservation and adaptation.

You’re welcome Zoochatters.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

So....we seem to be in agreement that knee-jerk dogmatism towards “invasive” species can at times be counter to legitimate conservation goals (even if the colonization is facilitated by human agency or effect) and that in any case we should examine fully the effects of a new organism introduced into a previously unoccupied environment before we immediately resort to eradication...because sometimes the dogmatic hysteria is overblown and again contrary the spirit of conservation and adaptation.

You’re welcome Zoochatters.

Sorry but there is more than a bit of revisionism going on here as that is not what your initial comment to this thread implied.

Hence at least as far as I can see there isn't really grounds for an agreement (with what you are now suggesting are your views) from me.

There was no such balanced and measured argument in your comments presented against conservation management strategies that involve control of invasives at all but rather an opinion and one based on a very poor understanding of geological and climate processes and past extinction events.

Furthermore, I would class the comment "humans get over yourselves" towards an IUCN initiative to prevent the spread of biological invasion as being a prime example of "knee-jerk dogmatism".

 

[Pleistohorse]

I would recommend you read my initial posts again. It is exactly what I said the first time. Try get past the typo and don’t worry about using an entire paragraph pointing it out. I am dealing new fangled technologies here and the unnatural use of thumbs as manipulative and not stabilizing digits... ;-)

My initial post assumed a level a reason and was also, because it’s the internet and a fun site for enthusiasts to engage with each other, a bit more concise and a tiny bit more snarky than my concluding post.

Perhaps you could review some of my other posts...before making assumptions...and maybe just acknowledge that you do indeed agree with me.

Maybe my past experiences as an educator and police officer (with a dash of wildlife management—nuisance calls and some regulatory enforcement) has equipped me to be a particularly skilled troll with these topics...or, as we used to say, capable of guiding a discussion towards a consensus?

Maybe I am totally ignorant and wrong and just got lucky.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I would recommend you read my initial post again. It is exactly what I said the first time. Try get past the typo and don’t bother using an entire paragraph pointing it out. I am dealing new tangled technologies here and the unnatural use of thumps as manipulative and not stabilizing digits... ;-)

My initial post assumed a level a reason and was also, because it’s the internet and a fun site for enthusiasts to engage with each other, a bit more concise and a tiny bit snarky.

Perhaps you could review some of my other posts...before making assumptions...and maybe just acknowledge that you do indeed agree with me.

I read your comment several times when you first posted it hence why I asked for clarification of your views because it was a bit of a confusing word / phrase salad (and I'm being charitable).

I agree there is a lot of nuance to this particular conservation management strategy, however, I think I've made it clear that I absolutely do not agree with the comments you have made here.

I'm a conservation biologist / ecologist and I work in the conservation of species which are directly threatened by biological invasion so I am personally not in the enthusiast camp as this is my career and work that I take very seriously.

For that reason I have some very strong views on this issue and took exception to your comments.

 

[Sheather]

We are probably not going to agree on the 10% of this issue where we differ. In the United States I believe invasive species have increased biodiversity...on balance. There are winners and losers, certainly. On Islands (Hawaii, New Zealand) ok...I generally agree that invasive species can be fairly catastrophic. On continents, in terrestrial environments...I just don’t agree. And I think the urgency in which money and science are used to “correct” the problem is just wrong. Example: Mountain Goats in the Olympic Mountains.

Now I know it is not a popular opinion and one could even argue that it is wrong...what it is not is uninformed. But it is just my opinion. I have almost no influence to affect environmental policy so we should not get to excited about it.

But I like the fact that pythons live in Florida, Banteng are secure in Australia, Dromedaries live as fully wild animals in the Outback, and one can occasionally see Emus along the backroads of Texas. Environments change and species adapt and the movement of species across the planet...wether it is facilitated by continental drift, rafting, wind blown flight, or human transportation is a natural occurrence.

I share your sentiments 100%

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Maybe my past experiences as an educator and police officer (with a dash of wildlife management—nuisance calls and some regulatory enforcement) has equipped me to be a particularly skilled troll with these topics...or, as we used to say, capable of guiding a discussion towards a consensus?

Maybe I am totally ignorant and wrong and just got lucky.

I think "skill" is hardly the right word to use to be honest with you, I would just go ahead and call it what is which is plain ignorance.

There is quite a difference between being a devils advocate and getting at the inherent nuance of an argument and making huge blanket statements which are actually factually incorrect.

I would really like to see you try some environmental education in Florida or New Zealand and Australia as I don't think it would go down very well.

You apparently aren't doing very well so far at guiding the dicussion to a consensus (perhaps the only consensus so far has been that your comments are simplistic and just wrong) though you are helping to highlight what a polemical issue it is, I'll give you that at least.

My final comment on the issue in this thread , if you want to continue this conversation lets PM.

 

[PossumRoach]

My problem with measures against invasive species is how brushtail possums get treated as if they'll destroy every environment despite only destroying an island ecosystem. Island nations should still have the appropriate measures but it's sad to see big US treat possums worse than house cats. But then again, I am pro trade so my opinion belongs to the trash.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

My problem with measures against invasive species is how brushtail possums get treated as if they'll destroy every environment despite only destroying an island ecosystem. Island nations should still have the appropriate measures but it's sad to see big US treat possums worse than house cats. But then again, I am pro trade so my opinion belongs to the trash.

Where are brushtail possums introduced to in the US?

I think the issue with feral cats on the continent is it's often hard to distinguish a true feral from someone's pet outdoor cat. That said, there are programs to attempt to humanely reduce this cat population.

~Thylo

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I share your sentiments 100%

How are native species-eradicating pythons and habitat-altering domestics deserving to be left alone and in fact celebrated? I'm still waiting for an answer from anyone on this.

~Thylo

 

[birdsandbats]

I think the issue with feral cats on the continent is it's often hard to distinguish a true feral from someone's pet outdoor cat. That said, there are programs to attempt to humanely reduce this cat population.

I know some recent extermination programs have made no distinction between the two.

I heard a stat today that if feral cats started to eat nothing but humans, we would be extirpated from the US in two years.

 

[PossumRoach]

Where are brushtail possums introduced to in the US?

I think the issue with feral cats on the continent is it's often hard to distinguish a true feral from someone's pet outdoor cat. That said, there are programs to attempt to humanely reduce this cat population.

~Thylo

Nowhere but they are listed under the injurious species list of Lacey act. I can understand a ban for import to island occupancies but to think that this Australian marsupial could survive ecosystems with wild cats in it requires fear driven lack of rationality. This is why the US will never have brush tailed possums in zoos.

 

[birdsandbats]

Nowhere but they are listed under the injurious species list of Lacey act. I can understand a ban for import to island occupancies but to think that this Australian marsupial could survive ecosystems with wild cats in it requires fear driven lack of rationality. This is why the US will never have brush tailed possums in zoos.

Isn't there one at San Diego?

 

[Pleistohorse]

How are native species-eradicating pythons and habitat-altering domestics deserving to be left alone and in fact celebrated? I'm still waiting for an answer from anyone on this.

~Thylo

I’ll get you after work. I don’t disagree with you. But I do think the destructive effect of the Python is again, in a sense, exaggerated. I’m not saying the species does not effect the environment in which it is introduced, but I don’t agree that change is necessarily destruction.

I feel I do need to restate that my initial posts (and subsequent ones) on this subject acknowledged that islands, up to and including Australia, are exceptions to my generally held view on the subject.

I’m not a fan of free roaming house cats either.

 

[birdsandbats]

I would recommend you read my initial posts again. It is exactly what I said the first time. Try get past the typo and don’t worry about using an entire paragraph pointing it out. I am dealing new fangled technologies here and the unnatural use of thumbs as manipulative and not stabilizing digits... ;-)

My initial post assumed a level a reason and was also, because it’s the internet and a fun site for enthusiasts to engage with each other, a bit more concise and a tiny bit more snarky than my concluding post.

Perhaps you could review some of my other posts...before making assumptions...and maybe just acknowledge that you do indeed agree with me.

Maybe my past experiences as an educator and police officer (with a dash of wildlife management—nuisance calls and some regulatory enforcement) has equipped me to be a particularly skilled troll with these topics...or, as we used to say, capable of guiding a discussion towards a consensus?

Maybe I am totally ignorant and wrong and just got lucky.

I'd also love to know what you think of all those Zebra Mussels, Round Gobies, Sea Lampreys, ect. destroying the Great Lakes. And about Nile Perch in Lake Victoria?