Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
Thank you appreciated
Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong
- Thread starter Damian Aspinall
- Start date
Thank you for your response. I’m glad so many (93%) of the gorillas are still alive in the wild.
In regards to the other part of my question. How can zoo bred tigers such as yours ever be released into the wild? Their extensive humanisation from captivity would make them at high risk of encroaching on human settlement and coming into conflict with people.
I doubt releasing them into an isolated area would bring any guarantee against this. They would clash with wild tigers that have established territories (an issue in itself) and potentially wander great distances from that area.
They would also struggle to feed themselves, having not been taught to hunt effectively as wild born tigers have been.
Hello, Zoofan15
There have been attempts to release tigers into the wild (Rehabilitating Wild Tigers). There are a few tigers in South Africa. As you say, reintroducing tigers into the wild is very difficult, as formerly captive tigers could kill humans and livestock, rather than wild prey.
There have been attempts to release tigers into the wild (Rehabilitating Wild Tigers). There are a few tigers in South Africa. As you say, reintroducing tigers into the wild is very difficult, as formerly captive tigers could kill humans and livestock, rather than wild prey.
It would be highly inadvisible in this case anyway - at least some of the individuals at Howletts are (despite being labelled incorrectly labelled as "Royal Bengal Tiger" as so often happens) zoomix and thus would be a potential vector of genetic contamination were they rewilded.
The whole discussion whether conservation is a valid justification for keeping animals in zoos is moot if keeping them in zoos is not bad at all from the animal's point of view. For me, @Damian Aspinall has not provided enough evidence to back up his claim that zoos are miserable places for animals. I would still be very interested to hear where this view is based on.
My approach is simple. If animals experience sufficient welfare, I have no problem if they are kept in a zoo. If they do not experience sufficient welfare, then we can have the discussion we're having right now: whether conservation, education and research are valid justifications to keep them in zoos.
My approach is simple. If animals experience sufficient welfare, I have no problem if they are kept in a zoo. If they do not experience sufficient welfare, then we can have the discussion we're having right now: whether conservation, education and research are valid justifications to keep them in zoos.
AFAIK there has been no Bengal tigers (ssp. tigris) outside Indian Subcontinent for several decades. All tigers called so are post-circus or zoo mixes.
I point that Damian given no evidence that fenced semi-captive reserves in home countries are better. So far he mentioned gorillas. His criticism to zoos: few species tried, inbreeding problem, applies even stronger there. On top of it, fenced reserves have problems: vulnerable to political unrest and lack of money, natural predators and many other species are excluded. I do not use the romantic name 'sanctuary' because it can mean anything.
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your question.
There is no doubt that rewilding some animals is more challenging and tigers would fall into this category. There is some interesting work going on in the field in Sumatra with tigers with some success and in Russia however more importantly when looking at Indian tigers in captivity they are 100% hybrids so have absolutely no conservation value at all which goes back to my earlier posts of the number of animals that are hybridised and indian tigers is an excellent example.
If you consider the sumatran tiger which is not hybridised to much in captivity where there has been a handful of reintroductions but these are tigers from captivity in Sumatra I believe it has had some success saying that i am not up to date with the information.
Whatever animals are re wilded i can say from experience it is incredibly difficult but not impossible. My experience in this area is people are to willing to dismiss the chances of success but without any real facts to support thee argument. My personal view is I will do all i can to make it possible ..hope this helps
I agree lets look at the Northern White rhino when it came down to the last group left in the wild, help was offered to that government for protection and or removals of which all was refused so the last wild group was wiped out, what was left was one group (of note) in a European zoo which I believe bred well for a time but due to the limited founder base was not going to last in the long term,Now atm I believe there are just two females of this sub species still alive atm. So lets not say now how they are better off in the wild under the care of useless governments that have little or no interest in these matters lets not say good zoos do not have a place in todays world because as most here know quite a few species have been saved from extinction and the species returned to wild areas of their past lets not be one eyed and only see one side of the story!
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
There is lots of evidence in SA and other African countries for example of fenced reserves doing fantastic work for conservation for example there are in SA 20,000 Ele in these reserves with no poaching. This population alone negates any reason to have African Ele in zoos. Our own work with Cheetah and Gibbons Gorillas Rhino and Langurs is another great example. Thank you for your post
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
@Damian Aspinall What about cases where the main threats to the continued survival of a species in the wild are those that arise from the presence of invasive species or diseases ?
How might those kinds of challenges be tackled strategically in-situ ?
What alternatives are there in your opinion to ex-situ management within zoos in these sorts of cases?
How might those kinds of challenges be tackled strategically in-situ ?
What alternatives are there in your opinion to ex-situ management within zoos in these sorts of cases?
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Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
I think everyone can agree the debacle of the Northern White and there is no doubt the species could of and should of been saved in situ and i can give an excellent example of how this can be done ie the Southern White Rhino that was down to a few hundred in the wild in the 70s and numbers today in the wild are 20,000 all the great work of a man called Ian Player and all done in situ. Thank you for your comment
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your comment and it may be nice to know who i am in discussion with as we are in quite a lot of dialogue ?
Well of course Zoos have terrible terrible issues with disease as well on so many species and of course areas in situ that may have a similar issue have to be considered very carefully. One example i can give you was when we were introducing gibbons back to the wild a lot of gibbon in zoos have hep b so we were given the argument rightly that you cannot introduce these animals back to the wild. However we then spent 3 year studying gibbons on the wild and organised a way to see if wild gibbons had in fact hep b. We found out that half of Moloch Gibbons actually carry hep b in the wild so that meant we could rewild the gibbons that carried this disease.
There are many things to consider when re wilding which we always take very seriously.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
We have already talked via private messaging where I have revealed my name to you so I don't think it is necessary to reveal it publicly on the forum.
By job / vocation I am a conservation biologist and I'm the co-coordinator of the mountain marmoset conservation program here in Brazil working in the conservation of the buffy tufted marmoset and the buffy headed marmoset.
Our experience has generally been that zoos have helped us immensely in supporting roles with ex-situ work and in all kinds of capacities with our ongoing in-situ work for our focal species. My personal views on zoos (which I might add are my own and do not necessarily reflect the program I work for or those of my colleagues) are very nuanced on the topic of zoos but I generally think that they can and often do play a necessary supporting role in in-situ and ex-situ conservation.
That said, I do agree with many of the points you have raised particularly regarding large mammals in zoos and I do believe many of your arguments are well reasoned and valid (I do not, however, agree with you at all on the subject of smaller taxa within zoos). This is why I have consistently argued on this thread that the debate is a worthy one for zoochatters to engage with (regardless of whatever our own personal views / opinions are) and that it is an important and healthy discussion for us all to have.
Very interesting regarding your work with rewilding the Moloch gibbons in Indonesia and thank you for sharing that example as it does illustrate very well that this is indeed a very nuanced and complex issue.
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Yes I am more than aware of the Southern White rhinos history I am of the same age as yourself, but the difference being that South Africa was not a 3rd world country like the other, my point which I believe you have missed is animals returned to many of these 3rd world counties have a history of indifference to wildlife and before you wheel out the mountain Gorilla history of one outstanding success story many will fall short of this example, I believe in time many of the returned animals put back into 3rd would counties will fall to poachers and the expanding human population, I do believe in placing species back into the wild at the right time and the right place and perhaps at a time in the future when humans have more understanding and respect of wild species, I feel as a whole now is not the time also even when animals are returned I really feel that back up populations should be kept captive, while one half of me likes what you are doing the other half tells me theres a huge risk so lets tackle the human part of the problem before we risk losing to many captive bred animals which took a lot of time effort and money to get them to the stage are at atm!
Well your trials to release animals are short term. You cite fenced reserves in South Africa, which is unusual country in Africa because it is politically stable and rich and with well developed tourism, so national parks work very well too. Most countries are not so fortunate.
LOL. Do you realize Northern white rhino was NOT saved in situ? The only ones left are imported from zoos to ex situ place in Kenya.
You keep evaluating semi-open reserves in the short term, few years. Curiously zoos you evaluate long-term. And you ignore problems of safety, stability and funding in most countries, like it was England everywhere.
LOL. Do you realize Northern white rhino was NOT saved in situ? The only ones left are imported from zoos to ex situ place in Kenya.
You keep evaluating semi-open reserves in the short term, few years. Curiously zoos you evaluate long-term. And you ignore problems of safety, stability and funding in most countries, like it was England everywhere.
This is what I was trying to point out the Damain but appears to go over his head,lol
Indeed; the last purebred Bengal outside the native range died at Bristol in 1984, the last animal with two definite purebred grandparents in 2012 at Wingst Zoo in Germany.
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
I do realise that which is why i stated it was a debacle ..
i don't ignore these point i merely point out that i believe a lot more is possible than people think and it is just to easy to say no and be negative when i feel we must do absolutely everything in our power to avoid captivity
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
How are our trials short term ? We haver been releasing gorillas for over 20 years primates for 10 years Rhino for 20 years etcThis is what I was trying to point out the Damain but appears to go over his head,lol
Damian Aspinall
Well-Known Member
I have never said re wilding is easy but i have said it should be a priority and i can tell you from personal experience that countries in the modern age are much more open to green and conservation issues. We have found this with Gabon Congo Madagascar Indonesia SA Pakistan and other countries what may have been impossible 10 years ago is not impossible today.
The trouble is people just assume the negative and doing that betrays the animals kingdom we all claim to love .