Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

BTW who are you T loving Dave as you seem to know so much ? or will you hide behind anonymity

I don't believe he's that anonymous. His name is Dave and he likes evidently really likes a good cup of chai.

 

[Ursus]

Hello Damian,

I have been following the thread for the past week moreso than engaging with the discussion like before.
Several times you referenced a study around zoo animals.

the study was done for our own learning on the subject and anyone who wants to learn or wants to question it is free to read and learn.

I'd like to take in on your offer on this! How do I go about receiving the papers? I read before you mentioned some name who to contact, but I have no clue on how to go about it.

I'm curious to see what the study proves and what your claims are based on, since right now I simply only know one side of this story and I wanna get a better understanding of the other, your side, of the this story to form a better opinion/stance on the subjects matter.

Do you have a email adress for me?

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Hello Damian,

I have been following the thread for the past week moreso than engaging with the discussion like before.
Several times you referenced a study around zoo animals.



I'd like to take in on your offer on this! How do I go about receiving the papers? I read before you mentioned some name who to contact, but I have no clue on how to go about it.

I'm curious to see what the study proves and what your claims are based on, since right now I simply only know one side of this story and I wanna get a better understanding of the other, your side, of the this story to form a better opinion/stance on the subjects matter.

Do you have a email adress for me?

of course amosc@aspinallfoundation.org
he did this research along with a scientist called Tony King. the research was to look into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically non viable animals

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

of course amosc@aspinallfoundation.org
he did this research along with a scientist called Tony King. the research was to look into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically non viable animals

Tony King is also part of the Aspinall foundation I believe and involved with primate conservation particularly

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Tony King is also part of the Aspinall foundation I believe and involved with primate conservation particularly

Absolutely and first rate

 

[Ursus]

of course amosc@aspinallfoundation.org
he did this research along with a scientist called Tony King. the research was to look into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically non viable animals

Thanks for the response!
is there anything I should mention in this email to ensure a reply, or to prevent it from being regarded as spam?

 

[Ned]

Some other Studies involving Tony King can be found here.

Tony King

 

[Jarne]

of course amosc@aspinallfoundation.org
he did this research along with a scientist called Tony King. the research was to look into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically non viable animals

And what about research to back up your claim that at least 95% of all enclosures are substandard?

 

[Zorro]

I am aware of the very few larger species and i suspect my insight is far greater than your own

Well bro if you had that much insight theres not much point being here your wasting your time and by the looks of it mine as well

 

[Ned]

Here's a link to the Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research, the third article down is a study into captive ungulate genetics in which King is a co-author.

Vol. 6 No. 3 (2018) | Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Thanks for the response!
is there anything I should mention in this email to ensure a reply, or to prevent it from being regarded as spam?

No he is expecting some people to reach out and is happy to liaise with you ..

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Well bro if you had that much insight theres not much point being here your wasting your time and by the looks of it mine as well

first of all I'm not your bro and secondly there is a huge point me being here as as much as people want to ignore me or hide from the truth i am here to shout loudly and clearly about the truth of zoos. However i agree there is little point you being part of this conversation as you are not adding anything relevant if and when you do i am happy to engage

 

[Damian Aspinall]

And what about research to back up your claim that at least 95% of all enclosures are substandard?

as i have said if you had read the thread this observation was based on my own understanding and deep knowledge of animals in captivity. Our research we did was looking into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically unviable mammal species in zoos

 

[Carl Jones]

as i have said if you had read the thread this observation was based on my own understanding and deep knowledge of animals in captivity. Our research we did was looking into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically unviable mammal species in zoos

Hybridization, disease and inbreeding and other genetic problems, are common in some captive populations. This is widely accepted and the efforts of responsible collections are to minimize or avoid these problems. There are well managed captive populations that are being used for conservation. The big problem is that we cannot manage all species in captivity there is neither the room or the skills to manage some species,

Zoos are good at displaying animals and this is a primary purpose, but often less equipped for breeding large numbers of animals for conservation. Within this thread there are a lot of truths being discussed but also a lot of confusion about what animal collection are for, and what they should be doing.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Hybridization, disease and inbreeding and other genetic problems, are common in some captive populations. This is widely accepted and the efforts of responsible collections are to minimize or avoid these problems. There are well managed captive populations that are being used for conservation. The big problem is that we cannot manage all species in captivity there is neither the room or the skills to manage some species,

Zoos are good at displaying animals and this is a primary purpose, but often less equipped for breeding large numbers of animals for conservation. Within this thread there are a lot of truths being discussed but also a lot of confusion about what animal collection are for, and what they should be doing.

This is true these issues are common and accepted however i do not believe that zoo people really understand how big the issue is or don't want to truly recognise the problem. When we researched these issues we were absolutely staggered with the findings and when we raised the problems with senior figures in EAZA at a meeting they actually said to me 'Oh we don't have these issues anymore we cleaned it all up' We then did a study on there own collections and sent it to them which showed huge issues with disease hybrids or genetically unviable species they went silent. In other words they lied to my face and have ignored the issue.
I came to understand how big a problem this is when i looked at our own collection wanting to look at re wilding possibilities at only to be told over and over ..this species is unviable for release for the above reasons...it made me really think what the hell have we all been doing for all these years. I have been so proud that we are record breeders of many species in UK and often the world but what's it all for if all zoos have made such a mess of things. I understand that this is an emotive issue for people but it is no longer acceptable to ignore the truth. It is also no longer acceptable to keep animals in zoos unless there is a genuine reason and only after a real independent process has taken place to justify that decision. I simply do not believe that animals in zoos should be there to entertain nor the extremely flimsy justification of education.

 

[Jarne]

This is true these issues are common and accepted however i do not believe that zoo people really understand how big the issue is or don't want to truly recognise the problem. When we researched these issues we were absolutely staggered with the findings and when we raised the problems with senior figures in EAZA at a meeting they actually said to me 'Oh we don't have these issues anymore we cleaned it all up' We then did a study on there own collections and sent it to them which showed huge issues with disease hybrids or genetically unviable species they went silent. In other words they lied to my face and have ignored the issue.
I came to understand how big a problem this is when i looked at our own collection wanting to look at re wilding possibilities at only to be told over and over ..this species is unviable for release for the above reasons...it made me really think what the hell have we all been doing for all these years. I have been so proud that we are record breeders of many species in UK and often the world but what's it all for if all zoos have made such a mess of things. I understand that this is an emotive issue for people but it is no longer acceptable to ignore the truth. It is also no longer acceptable to keep animals in zoos unless there is a genuine reason and only after a real independent process has taken place to justify that decision. I simply do not believe that animals in zoos should be there to entertain nor the extremely flimsy justification of education.

So it's your word against that of EAZA, I do know which one is more believable. With your views it's no wonder that they went silent, I'd do and will do the same.

Hybridization, disease and inbreeding and other genetic problems, are common in some captive populations. This is widely accepted and the efforts of responsible collections are to minimize or avoid these problems. There are well managed captive populations that are being used for conservation. The big problem is that we cannot manage all species in captivity there is neither the room or the skills to manage some species,

Zoos are good at displaying animals and this is a primary purpose, but often less equipped for breeding large numbers of animals for conservation. Within this threat there are a lot of truths being discussed but also a lot of confusion about what animal collection are for, and what they should be doing.

And clearly also the idea that if zoos are not perfect at being one thing, they don't have a right to exist regardless of all the other things they are and accomplish.

as i have said if you had read the thread this observation was based on my own understanding and deep knowledge of animals in captivity. Our research we did was looking into the problems of hybrids disease and genetically unviable mammal species in zoos

With other words, based on your gut feeling instead of scientifically backed studies. I'm quite done with the way you pose your knowledge about welfare as the absolute truth, almost like you are a messias given this enlightened vision and a higher understanding that no one else is apparently capable of reaching. You made this topic saying you want a discussion, but you you are unwilling to change your vision for just an inch. If you want to ridicule yourself, congratulations!

 

[Damian Aspinall]

So it's your word against that of EAZA, I do know which one is more believable. With your views it's no wonder that they went silent, I'd do and will do the same.


And clearly also the idea that if zoos are not perfect at being one thing, they don't have a right to exist regardless of all the other things they are and accomplish.


With other words, based on your gut feeling instead of scientifically backed studies. I'm quite done with the way you pose your knowledge about welfare as the absolute truth, almost like you are a messias given this enlightened vision and a higher understanding that no one else is apparently capable of reaching. You made this topic saying you want a discussion, but you you are unwilling to change your vision for just an inch. If you want to ridicule yourself, congratulations!

I am just making you all aware of the truth hide from it if you want. why don't you look at the work we have done on the issues of hybrids disease and genetics rather than just make personal comments at me. There is also nothing wrong with gut feelings as they are more than often correct. Secondly my view on enclosures is based on my deep knowledge and understanding of this issues which is more than a gut feeling. If you really believe zoo enclosures are wonderful and the animals don't suffer then you really don't belong in this debate as you are to far gone with your ill informed and prejudiced love of zoos.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

So it's your word against that of EAZA, I do know which one is more believable. With your views it's no wonder that they went silent, I'd do and will do the same.


And clearly also the idea that if zoos are not perfect at being one thing, they don't have a right to exist regardless of all the other things they are and accomplish.


With other words, based on your gut feeling instead of scientifically backed studies. I'm quite done with the way you pose your knowledge about welfare as the absolute truth, almost like you are a messias given this enlightened vision and a higher understanding that no one else is apparently capable of reaching. You made this topic saying you want a discussion, but you you are unwilling to change your vision for just an inch. If you want to ridicule yourself, congratulations!

And now you are calling me a liar which is so silly and unhelpful and childish. It is impossible to make the world a better place if this is the attitude.

 

[Jarne]

And now you are calling me a liar which is so silly and unhelpful and childish. It is impossible to make the world a better place if this is the attitude.

You're doing the same to EAZA, but apparently you're unable to see it from that perspective.

 

[Carl Jones]

This is true these issues are common and accepted however i do not believe that zoo people really understand how big the issue is or don't want to truly recognise the problem. When we researched these issues we were absolutely staggered with the findings and when we raised the problems with senior figures in EAZA at a meeting they actually said to me 'Oh we don't have these issues anymore we cleaned it all up' We then did a study on there own collections and sent it to them which showed huge issues with disease hybrids or genetically unviable species they went silent. In other words they lied to my face and have ignored the issue.
I came to understand how big a problem this is when i looked at our own collection wanting to look at re wilding possibilities at only to be told over and over ..this species is unviable for release for the above reasons...it made me really think what the hell have we all been doing for all these years. I have been so proud that we are record breeders of many species in UK and often the world but what's it all for if all zoos have made such a mess of things. I understand that this is an emotive issue for people but it is no longer acceptable to ignore the truth. It is also no longer acceptable to keep animals in zoos unless there is a genuine reason and only after a real independent process has taken place to justify that decision. I simply do not believe that animals in zoos should be there to entertain nor the extremely flimsy justification of education.

Thank you for your considered reply. There is no doubt that the majority of zoo populations are unsuitable for reintroduction, and the data show that very few species are ever reintroduced from Western zoos back into the wild. This is particularly true if the reintroduction is across country or continental borders.
Zoo populations need to be divided into those that we need for exhibit, education and study which can be semi-domesticated or domesticated, sub-specifically hybridized zoo strains and those for conservation purposes in separate populations that are managed for reintroduction.
The individual animals in zoo populations can be contented and most individuals live long healthy lives, and with zoo strains the animals are being selected for to live in captivity without showing the major behavioural problems we see in poorly kept animals.
To judge whether animals are inadequately kept depends on standards, and while these can always be better there have been major advances.
We agree on several points although I want to see zoos become more professional fulfilling a greater training, science and conservation role. Zoos do have an important role in learning about animals and then applying that knowledge to managing the species in nature.