Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong

Damian Aspinall said:
If you really believe zoo enclosures are wonderful and the animals don't suffer then you really don't belong in this debate as you are to far gone with your ill informed and prejudiced love of zoos.
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You only confirm that you can not be argued with. "If you don't fully agree with me, you're unable to reason and thus lost". The burden of proof for the statements about welfare lies with you, but if you can't see that you're right I don't belong in this thing that you believe to be a debate
 
Jarne said:
You're doing the same to EAZA, but apparently you're unable to see it from that perspective.
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i am not doing the same to EAZA i merely pointed out to EAZA the shocking results of the research we did on these issues and even though the research we did came from information from there own records they chose to ignore the issue. IE bury there heads in the sand which is a common theme amongst the the zootopian community. Even when these zoo directors were sent there own hybrids disease and genetic problems which they had denied in the first place they chose to ignore.
 
Ned said:
Here's a link to the Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research, the third article down is a study into captive ungulate genetics in which King is a co-author.

Vol. 6 No. 3 (2018) | Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research
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This paper certainly does not suggest that 'most' zoo animals are inbred, hybridized or diseased.

First, it concerns only 4 antelope species. Then, it claims nothing about inbreeding or hybridization. Then, its methods are not well suited to detect inbreeding or hybridization. For roan, zoo animals are from eastern population. For kudu, zoo animals are from Zambezi population. For waterbuck, both wild and zoo animals genetically do not separate into two visually recognized ellipsen and defassa subspecies. So out of 4 at least 3 are not hybridized. For eland, zoo animals are from two populations, but nothing is said that they were hybridized. There is a population of pure subspecies Cape eland at least in American zoos, by the way.
 
Pertinax said:
Yes, I'd be interested in a bit more detail if possible though.
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Same here.

BTW: I personally love to engage with Damian Aspinall even if we might disagree on various issues. I would stress it is important to be open to arguments and the other opinions' even though we are inclined to seek out ours with others who agree with us.
 
Jurek7 said:
This paper certainly does not suggest that 'most' zoo animals are inbred, hybridized or diseased.

First, it concerns only 4 antelope species. Then, it claims nothing about inbreeding or hybridization. Then, its methods are not well suited to detect inbreeding or hybridization. For roan, zoo animals are from eastern population. For kudu, zoo animals are from Zambezi population. For waterbuck, both wild and zoo animals genetically do not separate into two visually recognized ellipsen and defassa subspecies. So out of 4 at least 3 are not hybridized. For eland, zoo animals are from two populations, but nothing is said that they were hybridized. There is a population of pure subspecies Cape eland at least in American zoos, by the way.
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Please reach out to Amos Courage if you want to see the work we have done on hybrids disease and genetic bottle necks
 
TZDugong said:
Your zoo(s) holds both of these species though? You say “there is absolutely no reason to have either species in any zoo”, yet you have 14 Elephants, the largest herd in the UK.

It seems like you need to practice what you preach.
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News soon re this and you will see we do practise what we preach.
 
Dyl0526 said:
Well now that we know your the real Damian Aspinall I just want to say... Hi I’m Dyl, I respectfully disagree with your opinion about zoos but your allowed to have your own opinion and I encourage you to voice it as much as you want.
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Thank you i appreciate that very much .... happy to discuss with you anything on this topic
 
Carl Jones said:
Thank you for your considered reply. There is no doubt that the majority of zoo populations are unsuitable for reintroduction, and the data show that very few species are ever reintroduced from Western zoos back into the wild. This is particularly true if the reintroduction is across country or continental borders.
Zoo populations need to be divided into those that we need for exhibit, education and study which can be semi-domesticated or domesticated, sub-specifically hybridized zoo strains and those for conservation purposes in separate populations that are managed for reintroduction.
The individual animals in zoo populations can be contented and most individuals live long healthy lives, and with zoo strains the animals are being selected for to live in captivity without showing the major behavioural problems we see in poorly kept animals.
To judge whether animals are inadequately kept depends on standards, and while these can always be better there have been major advances.
We agree on several points although I want to see zoos become more professional fulfilling a greater training, science and conservation role. Zoos do have an important role in learning about animals and then applying that knowledge to managing the species in nature.
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Thank you for your response truthfully even though we are fantastic at breeding animals in our collections if it was not for all the re wilding work and protection of the wild we do i would not believe our collections have any real conservation value at all. I really struggle with the idea in todays age that its ok to keep animals caged for scientific and training reasons. Especially as so many animals are kept in substandard enclosures.
 
Jarne said:
You only confirm that you can not be argued with. "If you don't fully agree with me, you're unable to reason and thus lost". The burden of proof for the statements about welfare lies with you, but if you can't see that you're right I don't belong in this thing that you believe to be a debate
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thank you for your comment and sorry you could get nothing out of it
 
So I did read one of the Tony King's papers on primate reintroduction.

It seemed to suggest that the gorilla group reintroduced in the Gabon after some initial set backs and mortality had recovered and had ultimately adjusted well to the wild post-release, that survivorship was now decent, and that it had been a success. I can't really comment anything else on it other than what I read and I haven't really formed an opinion on the merits of this particular reintroduction.

The paper itself didn't actually come across as being "anti-zoo" but rather focused on the foundations work with reintroduction. It actually seemed to me to acknowledge the role that ex-situ conservation can play when matched with in-situ conservation efforts but perhaps that was just my reading of it.

One thing that did impress me about the work of the Aspinall Foundation was what was mentioned about the greater bamboo lemur in Madagascar and the emphasis on community based conservation. In fact I found it far more interesting to read about than the gorillas. Incidentally, I noticed today that their representative / field coordinator in Madagascar also works with the Malagasy big headed turtle and is the ZSL EDGE fellow for this species.
 
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Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
So I did read one of the Tony King's papers on primate reintroduction.

It seemed to suggest that the gorilla group reintroduced in the Gabon after some initial set backs and mortality had recovered and had ultimately adjusted well to the wild post-release, that survivorship was now decent, and that it had been a success. I can't really comment anything else on it other than what I read and I haven't really formed an opinion on the merits of this particular reintroduction.

The paper itself didn't actually come across as being "anti-zoo" but rather focused on the foundations work with reintroduction. It actually seemed to me to acknowledge the role that ex-situ conservation can play when matched with in-situ conservation efforts but perhaps that was just my reading of it.

One thing that did impress me about the work of the Aspinall Foundation was what was mentioned about the greater bamboo lemur in Madagascar and the emphasis on community based conservation. In fact I found it far more interesting to read about than the gorillas. Incidentally, I noticed today that their representative / field coordinator in Madagascar also works with the Malagasy big headed turtle and is the ZSL EDGE fellow for this species.
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If you want to read up on the facts we found out about zoos it is different work.You need to ask for the information on in breeding hybrids and genetically bottleneck species. Tony and Amos Courage did that work as well.
 
Damian Aspinall said:
If you want to read up on the facts we found out about zoos it is different work.You need to ask for the information on in breeding hybrids and genetically bottleneck species. Tony and Amos Courage did that work as well.
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Damian, of course I am interested in this topic and will get round to reading about this issue and the research of the Aspinall foundation into it in zoos.

However, recently I specifically asked Tony and Amos for papers on the reintroduction and in-situ conservation work of the Aspinall foundation as I wanted to familiarise myself with it and it is also pertinent reading for me considering our program.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Damian, of course I am interested in this topic and will get round to reading about this issue and the research of the Aspinall foundation into it in zoos.

However, recently I specifically asked Tony and Amos for papers on the reintroduction and in-situ conservation work of the Aspinall foundation as I wanted to familiarise myself with it and it is also pertinent reading for me considering our program.
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Understood and thank you for taking the time to read
 
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