British Isles Cup Redux - League A - Aspinall Foundation vs Twycross

[TeaLovingDave]

I have to admit, I've been looking forward to this one ever since I saw the results of the random category selection back in the planning stages for this revived British Isles Cup. I've been looking forward to it a LOT.

The cat is among the pigeons.

The gunpowder has just been ignited.

Two trains are on a collision course.

The category for this match is PRIMATES.

It goes without saying that I will be rather disappointed if this one doesn't encourage more people to vote, and equally disappointed if no one bothers to discuss and debate the vote at hand!

 

[ShonenJake13]

I will post more about this tomorrow. For now I’m putting my vote as a firm placeholder as a 2-1 to the Aspinalls.
Until tomorrow.

 

[Fallax]

This will be fun

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Prosimians

Aspinall parks - Only lemuriformes. Lemur species currently kept here include : Lesser bamboo lemur, greater bamboo lemur, belted ruffed lemur, black and white ruffed lemur, crowned lemur, red bellied lemur, ring tailed lemur, black lemur. Past species kept include: Coquerel's sifaka. All lemur species kept and previously kept are / were of conservation concern.

Twycross zoo : Only lemuriformes. Lemur species kept here include: Crowned lemur, red ruffed lemur, ring tailed lemur. All lemur species kept are of conservation concern.

Monkeys

Aspinall parks - New world species currently kept here include: Black and gold howler monkey, red bellied tamarin, pygmy marmoset, black capped capuchin monkey. Past species kept here included: Saki monkey, pied tamarin, woolly monkey, Goeldi's monkey, white faced capuchin monkey, golden lion tamarin, golden headed lion tamarin (?).

Old world species currently kept include: Dusky langur, golden bellied mangabey, Guinea baboon, drill, diana monkey, De Brazza's monkey, black and white colobus, Javan langur, white naped mangabey, Sulawesi macaque, Gelada baboon, Francois langur, lion tailed macaque. Past species kept here included: Samango monkey, spot nosed monkey, Douc langur.

Twycross zoo - New world species currently kept here include : Black and gold howler monkey, black headed spider monkey, common marmoset, emperor tamarin, golden headed lion tamarin, pygmy marmoset, red titi monkey, silvery marmoset, variegated spider monkey.

Old world species currently kept here include: L'hoests monkey, Francois langur, dusky langur, Diana monkey, De Brazza's monkey, black and white colobus. Past species kept here included : Proboscis monkey, Wolf's guenon, Mona monkey,


Lesser Apes

Aspinall parks - Lesser apes currently kept here include : Moloch gibbon, Siamang. Past species kept here included the lar and pileated gibbons.

Twycross zoo - Lesser apes currently kept here include : Siamang, pileated gibbon, Northern white cheeked gibbon and agile gibbon.


Great Apes

Aspinall parks - Great apes currently kept here include : Western lowland gorilla. Past species kept here included the common chimpanzee.

Twycross zoo - Great apes currently kept here include : Western lowland gorilla, common chimpanzee, bonobo and Bornean orangutang.

 

[TNT]

To put it briefly...

Both have a great history of holding some fantastic species, and that can't be denied (the proboscis monkeys at Twycross come to mind right away).

However, the breeding success with Gorilla and a few other species give the Aspinall foundation a "slight" win for me; as does some of their conservation and rehabilitation efforts in-situ.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

To put it briefly...

Both have a great history of holding some fantastic species, and that can't be denied (the proboscis monkeys at Twycross come to mind right away).

However, the breeding success with Gorilla and a few other species give the Aspinall foundation a "slight" win for me; as does some of their conservation and rehabilitation efforts in-situ.

Yes, I think that pretty much succintly sums up what I think too so I voted 2 / 1 for the Aspinall foundation.

 

[ShonenJake13]

So.

I think that Twycross's reputation has been greatly overstated once again, and that some people are voting based largely on historical species list rather than husbandry/enclosure standards. Let's not forget that the lemur walkthrough, and recent gibbon and chimpanzee upgrades, are the best enclosures Twycross have ever had for primates. The majority of their species were kept either in pairs or single animals, and whilst they have an incredibly varied collection even now (including the only UK bonobos) their primate collection continues to dwindle. Certain breeding records/species holdings (guenons, langurs, gibbons etc) are definitely notable, as is the overall species list.....but.

Aspinall. None of us (as far as I'm aware) are 100% a fan of Damian's views on zoos and whether or not they should close, and that may be a slight bias for some...but not only is their current collection miles more varied than Twycross, but their overall husbandry is heaps better too. You're looking at some of the largest populations of certain species of primate in Europe (silvery gibbons, lion-tailed macaques, langurs, drills), largely natural group sizes, all in enclosures that provide plenty of exercise/climbing opportunities, plenty of enrichment, and you're also looking at (as TNT put above) the largest populations of gorillas outside of Africa, and arguably some of the best husbandry. Plenty of gorilla fans from the UK (and elsewhere) often cite Howletts as the zoo you are most likely to see active gorillas outdoors, and for many good reasons (see my comments on the best UK gorilla exhibit thread for more details). Aspinall do also do a lot of conservation work, and whilst rewilding isn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea, their Javan primate success is not to be ignored.

Twycross is a great contender in this category. But there is a reason why they've dropped the 'world primate centre' moniker. 2-1 Aspinall.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

So.

I think that Twycross's reputation has been greatly overstated once again, and that some people are voting based largely on historical species list rather than husbandry/enclosure standards. Let's not forget that the lemur walkthrough, and recent gibbon and chimpanzee upgrades, are the best enclosures Twycross have ever had for primates. The majority of their species were kept either in pairs or single animals, and whilst they have an incredibly varied collection even now (including the only UK bonobos) their primate collection continues to dwindle. Certain breeding records/species holdings (guenons, langurs, gibbons etc) are definitely notable, as is the overall species list.....but.

Aspinall. None of us (as far as I'm aware) are 100% a fan of Damian's views on zoos and whether or not they should close, and that may be a slight bias for some...but not only is their current collection miles more varied than Twycross, but their overall husbandry is heaps better too. You're looking at some of the largest populations of certain species of primate in Europe (silvery gibbons, lion-tailed macaques, langurs, drills), largely natural group sizes, all in enclosures that provide plenty of exercise/climbing opportunities, plenty of enrichment, and you're also looking at (as TNT put above) the largest populations of gorillas outside of Africa, and arguably some of the best husbandry. Plenty of gorilla fans from the UK (and elsewhere) often cite Howletts as the zoo you are most likely to see active gorillas outdoors, and for many good reasons (see my comments on the best UK gorilla exhibit thread for more details). Aspinall do also do a lot of conservation work, and whilst rewilding isn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea, their Javan primate success is not to be ignored.

Twycross is a great contender in this category. But there is a reason why they've dropped the 'world primate centre' moniker. 2-1 Aspinall.

From what I've read I would say that Twycross historically has been a bit of a stamp book collection of primates while the Aspinall parks have had conservation at the heart of their ethos from the very start which also swayed my vote in favour of them in this poll.

That said, Twycross zoo does some work in supporting primate conservation and have supported the mountain marmoset conservation program and for that I am very grateful.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Any last minute arguments on either side? Particularly interested in pro-Twycross arguments.....

 

[pipaluk]

Any last minute arguments on either side? Particularly interested in pro-Twycross arguments.....

To be honest, I don't think there is a lot in this either way, I would have voted 2-2 if it as an option, but I voted 2-1 Twycross, just.
4 great apes, 4 gibbon species against 1 and 2 respectively. Twycross has improved its enclosures for the chimps, gibbons(indoors vastly superior to aspinall's winter accommodation) and to an extent orangutan . Lemurs, fairly even(marginal aspinall) . South America Twycross, old world monkeys - aspinall.
I also have reservations given the failure of the gorilla introduction (amongst others), so just Twycross for me

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Lemurs, fairly even(marginal aspinall) .

I would say that the Aspinall parks / foundation definitely have the edge over Twycross in this when it comes to lemurs both in terms of species kept ex-situ and in-situ work especially with the golden bamboo lemur.

 

[pipaluk]

I would say that the Aspinall parks / foundation definitely have the edge over Twycross in this when it comes to lemurs both in terms of species kept ex-situ and in-situ work especially with the golden bamboo lemur.

Probably you are right

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Probably you are right

I think in terms of New world primates though, Twycross has the edge.