British Isles Cup Redux - League B - Bristol/Wildplace vs ZSL

[TeaLovingDave]

Now *this* one will be an interesting one, and I will be rather disappointed if it doesn't spark a lot of discussion and debate on both sides.... as I think this is the perfect category for these two collections to face off against one another in: ECTOTHERMS.

As noted in the other match in this round, this category covers reptiles, amphibians, fish and invertebrates..... but how one handles the subject is up to you.

Let's see where things fall, shall we?

 

[Fallax]

I think this will prove to be an exciting round, will wait to hear what others have to say. I wonder how much of a say London's aquarium closure will have on this.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

This one is very interesting.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

This one is very interesting.

Indeed - this is one where I think factors such as exhibit quality, direction the collection is going,and breeding records will be just as important, if not moreso, than mere numbers of taxa held.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Indeed - this is one where I think factors such as exhibit quality, direction the collection is going,and breeding records will be just as important, if not moreso, than mere numbers of taxa held.

Well this one is a bit of a puzzle to solve thats for sure.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Whichever way I vote I have a soft spot for Bristol Zoo and the Bristol Zoological Society (I have an excellent boss who was trained by them).

I much prefer Bristol zoo in terms of the way it looks and the overall nicer feel and ambience of the place, the organization / zoological society and of course its collection. I honestly really do not at all feel the same affection for ZSL despite admiring their conservation output through the EDGE species programe (London Zoo is a bit of a disaster in my opinion).

I also think that Bristol really do deserve some credit for their work with captive breeding of species like the Lord Howe Island stick insect (they just need to apparently display the species better to the public), partula snails and Desertas island wolfspiders.

Moreover, they have important ex-situ populations of reptiles, amphibians and at least one fish of conservation concern like: Golden poison frog (EN), African dwarf crocodile (VU), Lemur leaf frog (CR), Mountain chicken (CR), Prehensile tailed skink (DD but probably at least VU), Malaysian giant turtle (EN), Rhinoceros iguana (EN), Golden mantella frog (CR), Black marsh turtle (VU), Utila iguana (CR), Aruba island rattlesnake (CR), Standings day gecko (VU), Vietnamese box turtle (CR), African pancake tortoise (CR), Cuban boa (NT), Yellow headed day gecko (EN and European breeding programe coordinated at Bristol), Aldabra giant tortoise (VU), Mississippi paddle fish (VU).

It is really quite a significant collection of Ectotherms when you think about it and I may be swayed to voting Bristol in the end pretty much out of preference rather than anything else.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I also think that Bristol really do deserve some credit for their work with captive breeding of species like the Lord Howe Island stick insect (they just need to apparently display the species better to the public), partula snails and Desertas island wolfspiders.

As regards invertebrates, they also hold the studbook for Fregate Island Beetle (Polposipus herculeanus) and Gooty Sapphire Ornamental Spider (Poecilotheria metallica), which are VU and CR respectively.

One of the factors which has swayed me for the present - although I still look forward to arguments being made on either side - is the fact that much of the ectotherm-specific side of exhibitry at ZSL is in the same depressing state of slow decline as is the case for much of the rest of the two collections in question, with the now-closed Aquarium at London having been left to slowly stagnate and fade into oblivion over the last decade or two, and the Reptile House sometimes feeling like it is going in the same direction, with more duplicated exhibits or boarded-up tanks each time I have visited. The Invertebrate House at London is rather better, although I have not seen it since some of the old aquarium collection was relocated there so cannot attest to how this has affected the whole.

It has been some time since I visited Whipsnade, but the reptile house there in the "Discovery Centre" has long-since been closed to the public and was in a state of some decline before closure - although I think it may be re-opening, or recently has done so, in significantly reduced form as another overflow of the former Regent's Park aquarium collection.

Conversely the standards of exhibitry for endothermic species at Bristol are pretty solid across the board, with the invertebrate house, reptile house and the stand-alone frog breeding pod particular highlights - and all of them seem to be developing and improving, rather than declining as the ZSL ones are.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

As regards invertebrates, they also hold the studbook for Fregate Island Beetle (Polposipus herculeanus) and Gooty Sapphire Ornamental Spider (Poecilotheria metallica), which are VU and CR respectively.

One of the factors which has swayed me for the present - although I still look forward to arguments being made on either side - is the fact that much of the ectotherm-specific side of exhibitry at ZSL is in the same depressing state of slow decline as is the case for much of the rest of the two collections in question, with the now-closed Aquarium at London having been left to slowly stagnate and fade into oblivion over the last decade or two, and the Reptile House sometimes feeling like it is going in the same direction, with more duplicated exhibits or boarded-up tanks each time I have visited. The Invertebrate House at London is rather better, although I have not seen it since some of the old aquarium collection was relocated there so cannot attest to how this has affected the whole.

It has been some time since I visited Whipsnade, but the reptile house there in the "Discovery Centre" has long-since been closed to the public and was in a state of some decline before closure - although I think it may be re-opening, or recently has done so, in significantly reduced form as another overflow of the former Regent's Park aquarium collection.

Conversely the standards of exhibitry for endothermic species at Bristol are pretty solid across the board, with the invertebrate house, reptile house and the stand-alone frog breeding pod particular highlights - and all of them seem to be developing and improving, rather than declining as the ZSL ones are.

I feel ZSL (at least in regards to its zoos) is in quite a state of decline too and it is really quite noticeable but I can't pretend that my vote was totally about ectotherms because it wasn't.

It is quite hard to articulate this for some reason but I think that Bristol zoo / zoological society have far more "heart", "character" and "soul" and feel far more welcoming to the visitor than ZSL.

Don't get me wrong, I will always support and admire the EDGE species program as one of the very best conservation initiatives there is because I genuinely believe it is but that is not the zoo.

I am basing my opinion on having visited Bristol zoo just once almost two decades but from what I remember it was a brilliant experience and the memories from that one visit remain strong. I remember the tortoises and the rhinoceros iguana particularly for some reason.

As you mention the displays for their reptiles, amphibians and inverts were / are excellent and that was back then so I can only imagine how much they have improved in the years since (though not for the LHI stick insect evidently).

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

As regards invertebrates, they also hold the studbook for Fregate Island Beetle (Polposipus herculeanus) and Gooty Sapphire Ornamental Spider (Poecilotheria metallica), which are VU and CR respectively.

I didn't know they held the studbook for these invert species and if I'm honest I didn't know about the existence of the species either.

However, now I do I'm really glad to hear that Bristol zoo are driving forward their conservation.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Anyone fancy making further arguments either way?

 

[Dormitator]

I would argue that the four top ecotherm zoos in the UK are Bristol, ZSL, Cotswold and Chester, with the ranking depending somewhat on which groups you care about most. Four or five years ago I would have put ZSL at the top of the list thanks to a great balance between the aquarium, reptile house and BUGZ, but with the loss of the aquarium this has really hampered things (though the Whipsnade one looks good, it isn't a patch on the original alas), along with a long-term decline in the reptile house.

Bristol's invertebrate house is the best in the country, the reptile house is excellent, and the aquarium is brilliant (though I prefered the 98% freshwater set up of 8-10 years ago) - very few zoos have large freshwater fish on display and the paddlefish alone deserve some credit. Points across the board for collection, balance between taxa and conservation focus here. There's no way London can't not get a point however, so 2:1 here.

Chester or Bristol however is a more difficult one...

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I would argue that the four top ecotherm zoos in the UK are Bristol, ZSL, Cotswold and Chester, with the ranking depending somewhat on which groups you care about most. Four or five years ago I would have put ZSL at the top of the list thanks to a great balance between the aquarium, reptile house and BUGZ, but with the loss of the aquarium this has really hampered things (though the Whipsnade one looks good, it isn't a patch on the original alas), along with a long-term decline in the reptile house.

Bristol's invertebrate house is the best in the country, the reptile house is excellent, and the aquarium is brilliant (though I prefered the 98% freshwater set up of 8-10 years ago) - very few zoos have large freshwater fish on display and the paddlefish alone deserve some credit. Points across the board for collection, balance between taxa and conservation focus here. There's no way London can't not get a point however, so 2:1 here.

Chester or Bristol however is a more difficult one...

Totally agree with what you've said about Bristol zoo.

Jersey with its amphibians and reptiles would surely be somewhere up there at the top too.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Jersey with its amphibians and reptiles would surely be somewhere up there at the top too.

It would very much depend on how one was weighing the various factors, to be honest - I've not visited the collection myself, but I am not at all sure how many (if any) of the amphibians and reptiles at Jersey are actually on-display, and even then Chester may well have more off-display species of herp than Jersey does, thinking about it!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

It would very much depend on how one was weighing the various factors, to be honest - I've not visited the collection myself, but I am not at all sure how many (if any) of the amphibians and reptiles at Jersey are actually on-display. Chester may well have more off-display species of herp than Jersey does, thinking about it!

I think probably totally off display now thanks to the pandemic but I thought they had a reptile / amphibian house that was open to the public normally though of course some of the more sensitive species would be kept off display.

In terms of inverts and fish though I would say definitely not comparable to Bristol.

 

[Dormitator]

Totally agree with what you've said about Bristol zoo.

Jersey with its amphibians and reptiles would surely be somewhere up there at the top too.

Not much time for a detailed reply I'm afraid, and I'd absolutely agree with TLD that is very factor dependent. However, as Jersey has a fairly small invert collection (though they did work with Partula) and a mere two fish species I don't think they're quite as balanced as the four I picked out. Ok, Cotswold doesn't have many fish either, but they do have a proper invert house (not just a butterfly walkthrough) which counts for a lot in my book. I was probably a little rash in including Cotswold in that top tier, but for me Jersey can't even begin to complete with Bristol, ZSL or Chester in this category.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Not much time for a detailed reply I'm afraid, and I'd absolutely agree with TLD that is very factor dependent. However, as Jersey has a fairly small invert collection (though they did with with Partula) and a mere two fish species I don't think they're quite as balanced as the four I picked out. Ok, Cotswold doesn't have many fish either, but they do have a proper invert house (not just a butterfly walkthrough) which counts for a lot in my book. I was probably a little rash in including Cotswold in that top tier, but for me Jersey can't even begin to complete with Bristol, ZSL or Chester in this category.

What are their fish and invert species ? I wasn't even aware they had any at all except the historic partula snails.

I think personally that Jersey could compete in this category given its conservation work with reptiles and amphibians and the species they keep being of top conservation concern but I don't think in terms of quantity of species kept.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Anyone fancy making last-minute arguments in favour of ZSL? @pipaluk perhaps?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I voted Bristol and stick to my vote but I think there are a lot of things in ZSL's favour including the excellent and unparalleled EDGE species program and the keeping of several ectotherms which are of top conservation concern and not at Bristol.

For instance, I know that the aquarium is now gone but at Whipsnade they have fish species extinct in the wild like Greek killifish, La Palma, Mezquital and Potosi pupfish and they also have fish species new to science such as Sainthouse’s killifish.

At London zoo they have a number of interesting and endangered ectotherms that are apparently not kept at Bristol. There are nine species of partula snail of which I'm sure one or more may not be at Bristol, endangered amphibians such as Lake Patzcuaro salamander (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation), Axolotl (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation), Chinese giant salamander (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation), Sardinian brook salamander (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation), Mallorcan midwife toad (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation) and Lake Oko clawed frog (also involved through EDGE with species in-situ conservation and first captive breeding).

There are a number of endangered reptiles like Philippine crocodile, Ethiopian mountain adder and bushmaster not kept at Bristol which add to London zoo's charm.The freshwater turtle collection kept at London include endangered or critically endangered species also apparently not kept at Bristol like Mccord's snake necked turtle, spotted pond turtle, spiny hill turtle, Annam pond turtle and big headed turtle.

 

[pipaluk]

Anyone fancy making last-minute arguments in favour of ZSL? @pipaluk perhaps?

I think the main reason I voted for ZSL has largely been covered by @Onychorhynchus coronatus post.
I just feel that since the main argument for Bristol appears to be its conservation efforts, ZSL is at the very least equal to Bristol in that area yet Bristol was being pushed in a way that implied that ZSL does very little when in fact it does a lot of in and ex situ work, particularly with amphibians, rare turtles and snails.
If the aquarium was still open it would be a lot easier to make a strong case for ZSL, it was by some distance the best in the UK, but Whipsnade'S new aquarium is very good, from a conservation viewpoint as well as its displays. Whipsnade's butterfly House is easily the best of the 3 in this contest too.
London's reptile House would beat Bristol imo if only all exhibits were still in use or didn't contain several duplicate species.
For me the Phillipine crocodile, Komodo Dragon and Giant Salamander are a plus for London too.
I am not really that bothered by invertebrates and have never been a fan of ZSL's BUGS, apart from the Jellyfish exhibit. I think I prefer Bristol's probably. I don't think there is a lot in it either way really so I can't push too hard for ZSL or criticise anyone voting 2-1 the other way!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I just feel that since the main argument for Bristol appears to be its conservation efforts, ZSL is at the very least equal to Bristol in that area yet Bristol was being pushed in a way that implied that ZSL does very little when in fact it does a lot of in and ex situ work, particularly with amphibians, rare turtles and snails.

This is definitely a match where a 5 point model would be better suited to the task! As I think a 3/2 vote either way would be more fitting than 2/1.