Ueno Zoo Ueno Zoo - panda politics discussion

@Onychorhynchus coronatus I don’t think there’s much point in us go back and forth as we are coming to the issue from radically different perspectives.

I think it’s great that Ueno Zoo has pandas. I also know that removing them won’t be a magic wand to turn it into a Japanese version of Jersey Zoo but with a focus on small indigenous species.

And don’t think Ueno is in any way diminished by being a big ABC zoo.
 
@Onychorhynchus coronatus I don’t think there’s much point in us go back and forth as we are coming to the issue from radically different perspectives.

I think it’s great that Ueno Zoo has pandas. I also know that removing them won’t be a magic wand to turn it into a Japanese version of Jersey Zoo but with a focus on small indigenous species.

And don’t think Ueno is in any way diminished by being a big ABC zoo.

Yes, I think we have to just respectfully agree to disagree because I do not share your opinion on pandas at all and as I've said before I have seen the collateral damage that this causes firsthand.
 
I dont think the Iriomote cat is kept in any zoo. Where do you see photos of them? I think you might be confused with the Tsushima leopard cat?

Yes, you are correct about that, my bad, I was confusing these two.

I had seen some of the pictures that you had taken actually like this one below (great shot by the way) and assumed that this was the Iriomote cat.

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I think that is a very reasonable position to take. But I do not accept that it it is an either or situation and that Ueno keeping pandas stops it from happening. Quite the opposite.
@Shirokuma, it is not that Black/White ..., I do tend towards the middle ground here!
Most Japanese zoo visitors just very much love giant pandas and the lesser pandas too. Not that I personally necessarily agree that we should always go with the general public, no quite the opposite ... but it is a reality you cannot just ignore for personal preferences and informed (and representative) zoological animal collection management (and mind I do / am very much in favour of the latter).
 
I dont think the Iriomote cat is kept in any zoo. Where do you see photos of them? I think you might be confused with the Tsushima leopard cat?
Iriomote cat would be a candidate species for an ex situ program (though). So in that gist estimado @OC's first observation remains more than valid.

Yes, they are in fact Tsushima cat for which a program runs over several Japanese zoos.
 
@Shirokuma, it is not that Black/White ..., I do tend towards the middle ground here!
Most Japanese zoo visitors just very much love giant pandas and the lesser pandas too. Not that I personally necessarily agree that we should always go with the general public, no quite the opposite ... but it is a reality you cannot just ignore for personal preferences and informed (and representative) zoological animal collection management (and mind I do / am very much in favour of the latter).

I suppose for me it is not pandas themselves but the way this negatively impacts conservation and education relating to native biodiversity in zoos and just the "pandanomics" which astound and absolutely disgust me.

Think just of the pandanomics here, the enormous cost of having giant pandas rented from China (a single individual costs $1 million dollars rented annually and most zoos sign a 10 year contract ) and then all of the financial costs associated with their feeding (typically $500,000 annually) and then the one time "baby tax" paid to China if offspring are born ($400,000) and then vet care and possible AI treatment (typically sourced from China too) which I have no idea how much that costs.

I mean think of what could be done for the conservation (whether ex-situ or in-situ) of numerous other species with that kind of money. I'm sure we could save a huge amount of species with the amount that it costs a single zoo to rent a pair of pandas for 10 years.

If we are talking specifically here about the Japanese endemic species which are threatened then I have no doubt that we could save the Iriomote cat, the Bonin and Ryuku flying foxes, the Ryuku spiny rat, the Japanese giant salamander, the Amami jay and the Amami rabbit with even a fraction of that kind of money.
 
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I wasn't proposing that Japanese zoos should all become Jersey zoos with small indigenous species either.

Japan is a first world developed country and does not have the same levels of biodiversity / isn't a mega-diverse country like other Asian countries or those of South America or Africa so there would be no justification for that.

What I was suggesting was that that much much more should be done for the ex-situ conservation of native and endemic Japanese mammal species which are listed as "Natural monuments" in the national legislation of Japan anyway.

The in-situ conservation of Japanese endemic mammalian species really isn't exactly great apparently either judging by several recent papers that have been published on the subject.

Any talk of spending money, colossal sums of money, on pandas for Japanese zoos should also take into account or at the very least prompt a discussion about what is being done in the country for endemic mammal conservation whether ex-situ or in-situ.
 
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@OC, I do not consider the amounts spent on giant pandas as colossal amounts of money. Please let me explain here!

Biodiversity and nature conservation is hopelessly underfunded and the billions that should be spent on preserving our Planet for future generations is more than usual pumped into "economic development(s)" for which past, current and future benefits have been shown to have many negative side effects and impacts on society, environment and life in general on our Planet. Equally, spending on arms vastly outnumbers the almost negligible amounts spent by nations on preserving our living environment, which IS a prerequisite to a Healthy Planet equals Healthy Life.

Now, I do not have the figures at hand - as yet - what the Ministry of the Environment, Provincial administrations or Municipalities spent on conservation of species and habitats in P.R. China. So, I have a little work to do. But the various overseas countries with a giant panda deal do not go beyond the 25-30 million USD mark per year. Given population size in P.R. China and per capita income how much is spent on biodiversity conservation in country and how does the external funding compare to that per capita/GDP in country?

Now, I would also view it as not "wrongful" nor "inappropriate" for overseas nations to support in situ conservation in other countries per se. I would even go so far as to claim without much further ado that this often reinforces the frontline of conservation in South Nations countries (often unable to raise adequate funds for in situ conservation from government coffers) or provides critical baseline support in countries where the external funding, capacity building, knowledge transfer and conservation tools are most welcome on the ground to further in country frontline conservation initiatives in more affluent nations.

I would be inclined - admittedly without having those very figures to prove beyond a doubt - to say that if you would compare the figures for each, you would acknowledge what is actually spent on biodiversity conservation in the country and add the 25-30 million USD per year on the giant panda deals to finance conservation by overseas nations to P.R. China that figure just would pale into insignificance.


These very same questions and general rationale should - in my view - also be applied to any other nations globally! So, ask ourselves how much do we as an individual nation spent on biodiversity and habitat conservation per capita / in country? I am sure (and sad to say) we would all be shocked at how little and lame/sparse/inadequate that response and the final figure really is.

If I reflect on my nation - The Netherlands - effectively we even have no funding model for habitat conservation as it has been privatised away, commercialised and often biodiversity conservation is an after-thought to or when development projects are discussed a quick scan is done to see if there are any threatened species around to tick the boxes (yes, done that ....), mitigation measures are in place (which invariably means wildlife and rare plants get displaced and critical ecosystem habitat are gone or simply next year those bats or rare hamsters are no longer in your belfry or backyard). The legislative necessities completed while the net result for nature and biodiversity is a darn shame. Also, we continue to have strong lobbies for economic development and in particular intensive agriculture that operate completely outside the voting booth yet has been influencing and intimating policy on agriculture, economic development and nature conservation in general for ages. The outcome for my country that is to put it mildly is extremely unhealthy at best. We are being held to ransom by an intimidating lot here which I personally find totally unacceptable. Yet our Government, our Provincial and Municipal authorities still seem to get swayed by active intimidation and sometimes even violent antagonists to change (no, we are not as peaceful as it seems ....).

BTW: I will look up the figure spent per capita/GDP in The Netherlands for you all, I promise.


Now, if one considers your country of residence Brasil - Estimado @OC, you of all people will acknowledge - that even when the Labour / Lula Govt. was in place biodiversity conservation while it might have fared a little better, big dams continued being built in the interior and damaging the local environment, destroying critical habitats, exacerbating deforestation all be it at a lesser rate and while rampant land disputes between migrants and the First Nations continued (often with grave human rights abuses). Now with the New Right in Government House in Brasilia, I am afraid you have again entered the Dark Ages of the days going back to the dictatorship (unknown in most minds outside Brasil, and even in it) and the socio-political as well as economic climate has become so unhealthy and sometimes even downright dangerous for those concerned to enact conservation and biodiversity pursuits in the country. Now, I ask you do you know how much per capita/GDP is spent on habitat, species conservation and environment now as part of the general budget by Central Government and individual States as opposed to Agriculture, Economics, Defense, Housing, Education and Health?

Perhaps (I might agree), this is better material for a more general thread on how we are doing right now with these topics in our individual countries!
 
@OC, I do not consider the amounts spent on giant pandas as colossal amounts of money. Please let me explain here!

Biodiversity and nature conservation is hopelessly underfunded and the billions that should be spent on preserving our Planet for future generations is more than usual pumped into "economic development(s)" for which past, current and future benefits have been shown to have many negative side effects and impacts on society, environment and life in general on our Planet. Equally, spending on arms vastly outnumbers the almost negligible amounts spent by nations on preserving our living environment, which IS a prerequisite to a Healthy Planet equals Healthy Life.

Now, I do not have the figures at hand - as yet - what the Ministry of the Environment, Provincial administrations or Municipalities spent on conservation of species and habitats in P.R. China. So, I have a little work to do. But the various overseas countries with a giant panda deal do not go beyond the 25-30 million USD mark per year. Given population size in P.R. China and per capita income how much is spent on biodiversity conservation in country and how does the external funding compare to that per capita/GDP in country?

Now, I would also view it as not "wrongful" nor "inappropriate" for overseas nations to support in situ conservation in other countries per se. I would even go so far as to claim without much further ado that this often reinforces the frontline of conservation in South Nations countries (often unable to raise adequate funds for in situ conservation from government coffers) or provides critical baseline support in countries where the external funding, capacity building, knowledge transfer and conservation tools are most welcome on the ground to further in country frontline conservation initiatives in more affluent nations.

I would be inclined - admittedly without having those very figures to prove beyond a doubt - to say that if you would compare the figures for each, you would acknowledge what is actually spent on biodiversity conservation in the country and add the 25-30 million USD per year on the giant panda deals to finance conservation by overseas nations to P.R. China that figure just would pale into insignificance.


These very same questions and general rationale should - in my view - also be applied to any other nations globally! So, ask ourselves how much do we as an individual nation spent on biodiversity and habitat conservation per capita / in country? I am sure (and sad to say) we would all be shocked at how little and lame/sparse/inadequate that response and the final figure really is.

If I reflect on my nation - The Netherlands - effectively we even have no funding model for habitat conservation as it has been privatised away, commercialised and often biodiversity conservation is an after-thought to or when development projects are discussed a quick scan is done to see if there are any threatened species around to tick the boxes (yes, done that ....), mitigation measures are in place (which invariably means wildlife and rare plants get displaced and critical ecosystem habitat are gone or simply next year those bats or rare hamsters are no longer in your belfry or backyard). The legislative necessities completed while the net result for nature and biodiversity is a darn shame. Also, we continue to have strong lobbies for economic development and in particular intensive agriculture that operate completely outside the voting booth yet has been influencing and intimating policy on agriculture, economic development and nature conservation in general for ages. The outcome for my country that is to put it mildly is extremely unhealthy at best. We are being held to ransom by an intimidating lot here which I personally find totally unacceptable. Yet our Government, our Provincial and Municipal authorities still seem to get swayed by active intimidation and sometimes even violent antagonists to change (no, we are not as peaceful as it seems ....).

BTW: I will look up the figure spent per capita/GDP in The Netherlands for you all, I promise.


Now, if one considers your country of residence Brasil - Estimado @OC, you of all people will acknowledge - that even when the Labour / Lula Govt. was in place biodiversity conservation while it might have fared a little better, big dams continued being built in the interior and damaging the local environment, destroying critical habitats, exacerbating deforestation all be it at a lesser rate and while rampant land disputes between migrants and the First Nations continued (often with grave human rights abuses). Now with the New Right in Government House in Brasilia, I am afraid you have again entered the Dark Ages of the days going back to the dictatorship (unknown in most minds outside Brasil, and even in it) and the socio-political as well as economic climate has become so unhealthy and sometimes even downright dangerous for those concerned to enact conservation and biodiversity pursuits in the country. Now, I ask you do you know how much per capita/GDP is spent on habitat, species conservation and environment now as part of the general budget by Central Government and individual States as opposed to Agriculture, Economics, Defense, Housing, Education and Health?

Perhaps (I might agree), this is better material for a more general thread on how we are doing right now with these topics in our individual countries!

To begin with @Kifaru Bwana I do agree with you that the money spent by zoos on giant pandas is not colossal if we are comparing it to the arms trade, economic developments or other anthropocentric industries where the amount of the former is obviously dwarfed by the latter.

However, I would counter that for China this "pandanomics" isn't actually about pandas, zoos or the conservation of the species and really never has been. Rather it has always been about consolidating trade relationships and improving their PR and soft power in countries abroad.

Moreover, if we are talking in financial terms specifically within the context and field of conservation and ex-situ zoo conservation then I think we would have to agree that the sums of money that are spent on all of the "pandanomics" I mentioned in my previous comment are vast (and I personally believe totally unjustified).

Even if the amount was not to exceed 25-30 million USD annually that is still an awful (perhaps even criminal) lot of money for a zoo to be spending on two individuals of a species. This does warrant and invite greater questioning and scrutiny of how this money is spent and why it is being spent in my opinion and particularly at this current point at time in the biodiversity crisis that we are facing.

The panda is an animal that is infamous for being difficult to breed within zoo environments and the fact is that it does not face such reproductive issues in the wild. Moreover the Chinese have mastered the IVF technique of producing young of this species in their zoos and breeding centres and they are pretty damn good at it too.

Why do zoos abroad / outside China need pandas if they are so incredibly difficult to breed, costly to keep, if the Chinese already have the conservation of this species covered (ex-situ & in-situ) and all in all the whole endeavour is a total waste of money ?

How much money would it comparably take to form captive breeding ex-situ colonies of endemic species such as the Bonin flying fox or the Anami rabbit in Japanese zoos and to successfully breed these whilst also conserving them in-situ ?
 
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Now, if one considers your country of residence Brasil - Estimado @OC, you of all people will acknowledge - that even when the Labour / Lula Govt. was in place biodiversity conservation while it might have fared a little better, big dams continued being built in the interior and damaging the local environment, destroying critical habitats, exacerbating deforestation all be it at a lesser rate and while rampant land disputes between migrants and the First Nations continued (often with grave human rights abuses). Now with the New Right in Government House in Brasilia, I am afraid you have again entered the Dark Ages of the days going back to the dictatorship (unknown in most minds outside Brasil, and even in it) and the socio-political as well as economic climate has become so unhealthy and sometimes even downright dangerous for those concerned to enact conservation and biodiversity pursuits in the country. Now, I ask you do you know how much per capita/GDP is spent on habitat, species conservation and environment now as part of the general budget by Central Government and individual States as opposed to Agriculture, Economics, Defense, Housing, Education and Health?

Perhaps (I might agree), this is better material for a more general thread on how we are doing right now with these topics in our individual countries!

Let me be clear, I do not think that it is wrongful or inappropriate for overseas nations to support in-situ conservation in other countries either, that is not what I am saying here. In fact I believe quite the opposite actually.

Also I agree with all of the points that you have raised regarding Brazil and I would add many more to those too as I am revolted with the way things are going here.

I should also clarify that I am not at all being Sino-phobic in my comment about "pandanomics" I am just pointing out what is clearly a hypocrisy when it comes to keeping this particular species in zoos outside of China.

Why not keep species endemic to China that are in far far greater need of ex-situ like the many snub nosed monkeys or the white headed langur ?

Why don't nations like Japan look at their own endemic species and realise that these need ex-situ programes and a greater investment and commitment to in-situ conservation ?
 
I think the Amami rabbit is an amazing little creature too, a living fossil no less.

I'm not sure about how commonly kept the species I wrote about are kept ex-situ in Japan but if I remember rightly the rabbit used to be kept at one zoo but I don't think it is anymore.

The flying foxes are kept at a couple of zoos in Japan but probably not in the large colonies of species like the Rodrigues or Livingstones kept in UK and European zoos. Not sure what their breeding success have been but I am going to have a look and see if I can find out.

The Iriomote cat judging by the zoochat gallery is kept by a couple of zoos in Japan too but again I have no idea what breeding success has been like.



Not sure I follow what you mean, do you mean to replace a species of megabat that is commonly held in Japanese zoos with the Ryuku or Bonin flying foxes ?

Yes, that could work I suppose, I have no idea whether megabats are commonly kept at Japanese zoos though

Yes, that's indeed what I'm trying to say with my poor English (sorry about that).
 
Yes, that's indeed what I'm trying to say with my poor English (sorry about that).

No problem at all ;).

Your English writing proficiency is actually fine, don't worry.

I think that might be a good idea, yes, and it seems that there are several megabat species kept by Japanese zoos which could be replaced with Bonin or Ryuku Island flying foxes.
 
There is a good paper which was published this year on the subject of conservation of Japanese terrestrial mammals and it is very revealing about some of the shortcomings in Japan when it comes to conserving endemic species.

Going to put some quotes here in case anyone is interested in reading it.

On Japanese laws surrounding endangered endemic species:

"1. Since Endangered Species are designated by Cabinet Order without hearing the opinions of specialists, scientific priorities may not be sufficiently considered. For instance, although the Amami rabbit (Pentalagus furnessi), the Bonin flying fox (Pteropus pselaphon), a subspecies of Ryukyu flying fox (Pteropus dasymallus daitoensis), and two subspecies of the leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis iriomotensis and P. b. euptilurus) are designated as Endangered Species Figure 2. The structure of Japanese laws on biodiversity. Basic Act defines the fundamental policy of the Japanese government for conserving biodiversity. Practical policies and strategies are described in the 9 specific acts. Under this act, 24 other mammalian species ranked VU, EN or CR are still not being adequately considered for endangered status. It is worse still that 20 of the 24 species are endemic to Japan (Table 1), and arguably these endemics should be given the highest conservation priority in order to support conserving biodiversity on a global level."

On the conservation of the Anami rabbit:

"A new program of mongoose eradication was restarted in 2005 on Amami-ohshima Island under the “Invasive Alien Species Law.” The subsequent decrease of the mongoose population and the recovery of the Amami rabbit population are recently recognized (Fukasawa et al. 2013; Watari et al. 2013). Predation by feral cats and road kills are the next most important issues, and habitat restoration and the connection of isolated habitats should also be considered. Restricting logging would help to keep more forest available for the rabbits. However, we cannot legally stop the logging in the rabbit habitats for their conservation, because MOE does not yet designate any area on Amami-ohshima Island and Toku-no-Shima Island as “natural habitat protection area” under the “Act on Conservation of Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.” Since both islands are a candidate for designation of an Amami and Ryukyu World Natural Heritage Site, a wise use of forest and conservation plan for the rabbits’ habitats is under discussion as a most urgent issue."


On the Iriomote cat :

"Habitat loss (deforestation) and road kills are major threats for these two subspecies (Izawa et al. 2009). A large part of both islands are covered with forests. The large area of inner mountainous forests on Iriomotejima Island is protected and managed as National Forest and National Park by the national government of Japan. However, in the northern coastal lowlands of the island deforestation through land conversion for agriculture, construction of roads and tourist facilities, and the loss of the forests through road widening have all occurred. Forest protection and management are relatively weak on Tsushima; one-third of the forests are artificial plantations and most forests are private property without any regulation against deforestation."

"Iriomote cat numbers have been estimated as 83-109 in 1984 and 99-110 in 1994. Although no clear tendency of decrease or increase was recognized (Ministry of the Environment of Japan 1985; Japan Wildlife Research Center 1994), the survey in 2005-2008 suggested that the population in the coastal lowland showed a decrease of 8-9 % (University of the Ryukyus 2008). The Tsushima leopard cat was reported to inhabit all of the Ryukyu Islands with a population of 200 to 300 until the 1970’s (Yamaguchi and Urata 1976), although details were not clear. Recently the population size was estimated at 98-142 in 1988, 92-129 in 1997 and 83-115 in 2005 (Japan Wildlife Research Center 1988; Ministry of the Environment and Nagasaki Prefecture 1997, Japan Wildlife Research Center 2005). The population is declining at the rate of about 10 % every 10 years (Japan Wild life Research Center, 2005)."

On the Bonin, Daito and Ryuku flying foxes:

"The Bonin flying fox on Chichijima Island (the largest island within its distribution) was considered to be extinct in the 1970’s, but they recolonized in the 1980’s (Inaba et al. 2002). Population size has slowly increased since then and is estimated at 100 to150 individuals by recent surveys (Kinjo and Izawa 2009; Suzuki and Inaba 2010). On the other hand, the population on Hahajima Island (the second largest island) greatly decreased from more than 100 in 1960’s to a few individuals in 2000’s. As it is hard to access other islands in their distribution, information is very limited. The population on Minami-Iwo-to Island was estimated at more than 100 in 1982 and 2007 (Suzuki 2008; Kinjo and Izawa 2009; Suzuki and Inaba 2010). For the Daito flying fox, information on their status is even less. The Daito Isls. have a unique history of human activity. These islands have been inhabited since 1900, and almost all natural forests were cut and turned into farmland. Then many native animals including endemic species went extinct. The population of the Daito flying fox may have drastically decreased, although the original population size is unknown. Recent estimation showed that population size was about 300, and it has looked stable in the last 10 years (Izawa et al. unpublished)."

"As the habitats of both species are oceanic islands, there are no natural enemies for them. The only natural harm to their populations is the effect of typhoons (Nakamoto et al. 2007; 2011). Typhoons cause direct mortality and also cause food shortages bydamaging food plants. For the conservation of flying foxes, various plants should be ensured for their food supply and roosting sites. Threats for the flying foxes are habitat destruction such as deforestation, disturbance of roosting sites by tourism, and predation by alien predators such as domestic cats. Especially for the Bonin flying fox, which forms permanent colonies and tends to use fixed roosting sites (Sugita et al. 2009), human disturbance to these roosting sites is a serious threat. Additionally, these bats conflict with farmers for commercial fruits. Although farmers do not kill flying foxes directly, they are accidentally killed by orchard nets which farmers set to prevent birds and flying foxes from accessing fruit crops."

"A project to control the population of feral cats was also done and still continues. It gives steady favorable results so far. On the other hand, the designation of world natural heritage status has brought in more active tourism. This has caused the disturbance of roosting sites and habitat reduction of the Bonin flying fox. For the Daito flying fox, human caused damage to its population is not so serious now. A most serious concern is strong typhoons which reach these islands several times a year. Provision of food after typhoon attacks is a most important conservation measure. Other actions needed to maintain natural habitats are stopping the enlargement of farmlands and eliminating the invasive pest insects on agricultural plants."


Imagine what could be done in terms of in-situ conservation or ex-situ conservation programes in zoos with these endemic species with all of the money spent on pandas....

Source: Conservation and management of terrestrial mammals in Japan: its system and practices, Koichi Kaiji et al, 2020.
 
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Ryukyu flying fox is at Ueno, Inokashira, and at least 2 zoos in Okinawa I went to. In fact, the Okinawa Children's Zoo and Museum (flagship zoo of the island) keeps 2 subspecies, the Orii and the Daito, although they are mixed in the same aviary, which I dislike. All other places keep solely the Orii.

Hirakawa Zoo in Kyushu has the only captive breeding population of the Amami rabbit, however they are offshow. I emailed them and asked nicely, and they said someday I could go photograph one.

Sorry @RatioTile, I didn't see your comment before, well that is interesting and heartening to know that the Ryuku flying fox is kept at several zoos in Japan.

Why are these subspecies being kept and presumably bred with one another ?

Also, what are the enclosures for these bats like in your opinion ?

I would hope that eventually captive colonies of the Bonin island flying fox would also be established at Japanese zoos as this is a purely Japanese endemism and one that certainly requires ex-situ.

I believe that the Amami rabbit colony that is kept at Hirakawa zoo is only down to a few individuals now and I personally think it would really benefit from being strengthened and also being kept at other zoos.
 
Imagine what could be done in terms of in-situ conservation or ex-situ conservation programes in zoos with these endemic species with all of the money spent on pandas....

If zoos said "we would love to do more work with indigenous species but we simply cannot afford to because we are spending every penny we have on pandas" I might buy this argument but I don't accept that there is a link between the two. If Ueno doesn't get to keep the pandas do you think they will suddenly shift their focus to where you think it should go?
 
If zoos said "we would love to do more work with indigenous species but we simply cannot afford to because we are spending every penny we have on pandas" I might buy this argument but I don't accept that there is a link between the two. If Ueno doesn't get to keep the pandas do you think they will suddenly shift their focus to where you think it should go?

First of all, no zoo director with a brain in their skull would ever say that openly because it would be bad for business and most zoos are very much profit minded / driven institutions either out of necessity or commercialism.

However, that does not mean that this isn't exactly what they are thinking. I've personally seen it myself with my own two eyes because as I've said I worked in a zoo that held both pandas and endemic / native species, have you ?

Second, zoos absolutely have to prioritize and curate their public image in these media and marketing saturated times. Making such a frank honest statement would ultimately be counterproductive because one of the key marketing strategies of zoos in the 21st century is the claim of being centres of conservation and education (which is plainly false for a great many of them).

To be clear, my point is not that if Ueno zoo or indeed any other zoo that keeps the giant panda stops keeping the species then it will suddenly by some strange alchemy and magic trick become wholely geared towards conserving neglected native endemic species or small taxa. This is not what I am arguing at all because it is unrealistic.

What I am suggesting is that zoos that spend such utterly insane amounts of money on renting pandas from China truly need to do some urgent soul searching ASAP about exactly why they are wasting such colossal sums not only on a futile endeavour but a deeply morally / ethically questionable one at that too.

The statement "think globally, act locally" gets thrown around a lot nowadays but I genuine believe that it is a pertinent one to consider when it comes to the conservation of biodiversity. This is why I mention Japanese endemic fauna in the context of this panda politics thread because Japan is a chronic underperformer when it comes to the conservation of the biodiversity / species endemic to its own country.

I've already provided facts, figures and statistics to you about how imperiled and neglected Japanese native species are and why I believe the money spent on obtaining and maintaining pandas in a city zoo for such astronomical sums is a gross and frivolous waste of resources that cannot be justified.
 
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To be clear, my point is not that if Ueno zoo or indeed any other zoo that keeps the giant panda stops keeping the species then it will suddenly by some strange alchemy and magic trick become wholely geared towards conserving neglected native endemic species or small taxa. This is not what I am arguing at all because it is unrealistic.

And yet you started the discussion by saying

*sigh* :rolleyes:... Why not focus that wasted energy and sentiment on the Ryuku flying fox, Bonin flying fox, Amami rabbit, Iriomote cat etc ?

To be clear, I think it is a reasonable argument to make that the panda system is flawed. It is a reasonable argument to make that Japan and its zoos could do a better job of preserving indigenous species. But I don't accept that the two are connected, especially as most zoos in Japan don't have giant pandas.
 
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