What species would you ban from zoos?

Only because European or American zoos compete with each other for pandas. If they formed an uniform group, or EAZA and AZA discouraged members from renting pandas, they could get lower charges. Chinese would rather get less money than none at all. And that is not that China, the world's biggest economy, needs foreign money to protect its most famous animal.

Chinese must laugh whenever they see a new zoo announcing they will get pandas.

And panda, like ring-tailed lemur or white tiger, looks good on photos, but in real life is less active and less engaging than its relatives. The former pandas in Berlin zoos were more often than not sleeping and ignored by the public. I saw once how people ignored sleeping pandas, and crowded to see Geoffroy's cat kittens playing with their keeper. Which looked almost exactly like normal tabby cat kittens.
 
Jurek7 said:
Only because European or American zoos compete with each other for pandas. If they formed an uniform group, or EAZA and AZA discouraged members from renting pandas, they could get lower charges. Chinese would rather get less money than none at all. And that is not that China, the world's biggest economy, needs foreign money to protect its most famous animal.

Chinese must laugh whenever they see a new zoo announcing they will get pandas.

And panda, like ring-tailed lemur or white tiger, looks good on photos, but in real life is less active and less engaging than its relatives. The former pandas in Berlin zoos were more often than not sleeping and ignored by the public. I saw once how people ignored sleeping pandas, and crowded to see Geoffroy's cat kittens playing with their keeper. Which looked almost exactly like normal tabby cat kittens.
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Whilst I don't agree that they should be *Banned*, I do think that European zoos should instead be encouraged to work with species that we do well with in the region... Spectacled bears for example; they're suited to our climate (Like the Gian Panda), but have a successful breeding record (Unlike the Giant Panda).

The Chinese are doing great with Giant Panda in their own zoos, and don't need our "help". Not that they expect the Pandas that they give us to be able to breed anyway, the pairs are often from geographically distinct populations, reducing the chances of the production of offspring.

Although, I will note that they are certainly a huge visitor draw, so understand why European zoos would want them... but as you've said, the costs are so high, that I doubt the increased visitor numbers make up the yearly payments to the Chinese Gov.
 
ThomasNotTom said:
Although, I will note that they are certainly a huge visitor draw, so understand why European zoos would want them... but as you've said, the costs are so high, that I doubt the increased visitor numbers make up the yearly payments to the Chinese Gov.
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As the financial statistics bear out, they do not... zoos lose more money on giant pandas than is taken in from increased revenue (after the first couple years or so), so it's more of a prestige thing.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
As the financial statistics bear out, they do not... zoos lose more money on giant pandas than is taken in from increased revenue (after the first couple years or so), so it's more of a prestige thing.
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Yes, that's what I've said? Or am I misinterpretating your post?
 
ThomasNotTom said:
Yes, that's what I've said? Or am I misinterpretating your post?
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You said that you doubted increased visitor numbers make up for lost revenue in yearly payments (and as I added in my head, the high in-house costs of panda care); I was just confirming that the evidence supports those doubts. So yes, I was agreeing with you and backing up your claim.
 
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Jurek7 said:
Only because European or American zoos compete with each other for pandas. If they formed an uniform group, or EAZA and AZA discouraged members from renting pandas, they could get lower charges. Chinese would rather get less money than none at all. And that is not that China, the world's biggest economy, needs foreign money to protect its most famous animal.

Chinese must laugh whenever they see a new zoo announcing they will get pandas.

And panda, like ring-tailed lemur or white tiger, looks good on photos, but in real life is less active and less engaging than its relatives. The former pandas in Berlin zoos were more often than not sleeping and ignored by the public. I saw once how people ignored sleeping pandas, and crowded to see Geoffroy's cat kittens playing with their keeper. Which looked almost exactly like normal tabby cat kittens.
Click to expand...

China is not the world’s biggest economy. It is close, but in terms of nominal GDP the United States still reigns supreme. That may not be the case in 2030, but in 2020 it still is. I agree with you on EAZA/AZA zoos banding together to negotiate better lease terms with China, though. If they all decide to walk away together and China gets no money, it will be China that will come crawling back with a better proposal.
 
imaginarius said:
China is not the world’s biggest economy. It is close, but in terms of nominal GDP the United States still reigns supreme. That may not be the case in 2030, but in 2020 it still is. I agree with you on EAZA/AZA zoos banding together to negotiate better lease terms with China, though. If they all decide to walk away together and China gets no money, it will be China that will come crawling back with a better proposal.
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China is larger if you count GDP by Purchasing Power Parity (a method that accounts relative local costs) and has been for a while.
 
Mattaki said:
China is larger if you count GDP by Purchasing Power Parity (a method that accounts relative local costs) and has been for a while.
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PPP is not the gold standard by which economies are compared; nominal GDP is.

Moreover, a significantly larger chunk of China’s population lives in abject poverty than that of the United States. 300 million of China’s people are doing well; 1.1 billion are destitute. China is not a developed country, GDP aside, until that changes.
 
Well there are a couple of reasons:
  1. It's SeaWorld.
  2. Tricks.
  3. Not enough Space.
  4. They're huge! For me the maximum length a captive species can be is 25 feet. So about the size of a adult Saltwater Crocodile.
Anyway, I don't want to get into any debate. I just wanted to add my two cents in. Speaking of which, does anyone know the maximum length of a African Elephant?
 
PlaZooFan14 said:
Well there are a couple of reasons:
  1. It's SeaWorld.
  2. Tricks.
  3. Not enough Space.
  4. They're huge! For me the maximum length a captive species can be is 25 feet. So about the size of a adult Saltwater Crocodile.
Anyway, I don't want to get into any debate. I just wanted to add my two cents in. Speaking of which, does anyone know the maximum length of a African Elephant?
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Not that I don't agree that Orcas are a species that is better not kept in captivity, but what you are saying here doesn't really answers anything.

1. So because it's SeaWorld you're against orcas in captivity? What did they do wrong except for keeping orcas? If that's the reason you would have a circular way of thinking. You also do realize there are multiple other facilities with them around the world.

2. Because they do tricks voluntarily, just like every other animal doing something on command in modern zoos?

3 + 4. And what makes that these things are a problem? What factors/effects show that an animal has too less space? There is more then one's size that decides of wether an animal has enough space, a multitude of factors need to be taken into account. Activity, social setting, environmental requirements, human disturbance, ...


There certainly are some actual arguments about the practice of keeping orcas: financial restraints in making huge complexes, genetic viability of a captive program, lack of conservational benefits, mixing of different orca populations, difficulties in creating natural social groupings, stereotypical behavior and aggressive behavior. Breeding success might be another one with a lot of A.I. breeding (a question that can also be applied to the giant panda and also to African elephants in many zoos). The space problem is spread over a multitude of these. Most of these are also rather current practical problems, not inherent problems for which it is proven that even with all the money in the world they couldn't be solved. I doubt wether we will ever be able to practically solve them, but who knows. Instead of banning them setting extremely high enclosure standards would be a better option as it leaves open the choice to zoos wether they want to follow those standards or go for a phase-out.
 
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Jarne said:
Not that I don't agree that Orcas are a species that is better not kept in captivity, but what you are saying here doesn't really answers anything.

1. So because it's SeaWorld you're against orcas in captivity? What did they do wrong except for keeping orcas? If that's the reason you would have a circular way of thinking. You also do realize there are multiple other facilities with them around the world.

2. Because they do tricks voluntarily, just like every other animal doing something on command in modern zoos?

3 + 4. And what makes that these things are a problem? What factors/effects show that an animal has too less space? There is more then one's size that decides of wether an animal has enough space, a multitude of factors need to be taken into account. Activity, social setting, environmental requirements, human disturbance, ...


There certainly are some actual arguments about the practice of keeping orcas: financial restraints in making huge complexes, genetic viability of a captive program, lack of conservational benefits, mixing of different orca populations, difficulties in creating natural social groupings, stereotypical behavior and aggressive behavior. Breeding success might be another one with a lot of A.I. breeding (a question that can also be applied to the giant panda and also to African elephants in many zoos). The space problem is spread over a multitude of these.
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Well, you learn something new everyday! In all seriousness though, i don't want to be dragged in debate...
 
PlaZooFan14 said:
Well there are a couple of reasons:
  1. It's SeaWorld.
  2. Tricks.
  3. Not enough Space.
  4. They're huge! For me the maximum length a captive species can be is 25 feet. So about the size of a adult Saltwater Crocodile.
Anyway, I don't want to get into any debate. I just wanted to add my two cents in. Speaking of which, does anyone know the maximum length of a African Elephant?
Click to expand...
Its SeaWorld and tricks, Well I guess that says it all o_O
 
PlaZooFan14 said:
Anyway, I don't want to get into any debate. I just wanted to add my two cents in.
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PlaZooFan14 said:
i don't want to be dragged in debate...
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There is a difference between reasonable and civil discussion - which is taking place above - and being "dragged into a debate" methinks - and if you don't want people to discuss the points posed, or to provide counterpoints and/or further information, there seems little point in taking part in a discussion thread on the matter in the first place :P
 
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