Well, giant panda aren't really an easy or cheaply to keep species in captivity anyway. Red panda on the other hand are a great alternative for them, popular and quite easy to keep.
Bristol Zoo (Closed) Bristol Zoo - 2022 planned closure of current site, and relocation to Wild Place site.
- Thread starter oflory
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
No, but I do not mean in terms of zoos I mean the giant panda as an umbrella species for in-situ ecosystem conservation and specifically am referring to this study.
Giant panda conservation is failing to revive the wider ecosystem – new study
However, on that point I have actually observed that the use of the giant panda as a kind of "zoo umbrella species" has not brought benefits for other zoo conservation programes and quite the opposite actually.
Anyway, getting off topic with this, so back to the topic of Bristol zoo and its future.
Well, in the case of Hamerton I have heard @Andrew Swales note - both here on the forum and on the three or four times I have met him in person - that this is exactly why the presence of animals such as the white tigers (and now the bears) is so very pivotal
they get people *to* the zoo and bring in the money that allows the collection to *also* hold the species which strange enthusiasts such as ourselves get excited for.No white tigers..... no collared lemurs, aardwolves, Ring-tailed possums, Tiger quolls etc etc.....
That's interesting as Bristol themselves employed exactly the same ploy in the mid-1960's when they imported that first pair of White Tigers direct from the Maharajah of Rewa. It was aimed at turning their fortunes around and to a large extent, I think it worked. So did the birth of their first Polar Bear cub Sebastian- the queues were not as big as London's, but then its a smaller city. More recently Noah's Ark certainly filled a niche in the Bristol area with their 'where the big animals are' message.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
I'll answer as I have been asked but am aware that this is stretching the Bristol subject very thinly.
The Collared Lemur situation is really complete fluke. All of the animals (along with the Sanford's) had been sterilised by Duke. We received animals which were not only implanted, but also assumed too old to breed. Our stock is descended from a single related pair and another ditto received from Banham when they got bored with them. We have only ever managed to interest 3 other collections in them - Grangewood took a pair which disappeared to the best of my knowledge - Dudley had some males - Cotswold had a pair, bred them and then got fed up too (replacing them on EAZA instructions) with Crowned, and we had them back, to some derision here on ZooChat I remember. Other than that we exchanged all the other individuals which left here with dealers in the Czech Republic. Those found on mainland Europe are descended from those animals.
Sorry - I dont know what your first question means.
Yes, other species can be engineered to become 'charismatic', (but are you now using that word instead of 'megafauna'?) and zoos do showcase them. Look at the Meerkat for example - engineered by the media and showcased by zoos. Attempts to do the same with Sloths are underway at the moment.
But is does look as though the newly engineered 'charismatics' might not have permanent pulling power. Meerkats are everywhere, and if you take gift-shop sales as an indication of public interest (which is actually quite a good barometer), they might well have had-their-day, or be approaching it. Fifty percent of the £150,000 income produced by our gift-shop is (still) White Tiger related items.
As I said, the megafauna are the constant.
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Trying to get back on topic, here are some ‘mood boards’ loosely showing the plans in three phases. Our Future Mood Boards | Bristol Zoo
In the 1950's era in Bristol Zoo's birdhouse there were Ring-tailed(breeding) Mongoose and Black Lemurs, but nobody noticed them much- feeding the macaws chained on perches was the draw in there. And of course in those days Bristol had virtually everything in the megafauna line (apart from Hippo)- Elephant, Rhinoceros. Giraffe, Camel, Zebras, all the big cats, three ape species, deer and antelope, a large collection of Old World monkeys, a colony of Rhesus macaque, four-even five, Bear species, wolf, sealion, kangaroo etc- the bird, reptile and fish collections were largely back-ups to all that.
I can't remember when I first saw a meerkat in a UK zoo. I think a few places had them but nobody recognised the name, just some 'small mammal'. The very first T.V. documentary that brought them to public attention was called 'Meerkats United' (forget date- 1980's I think).
I wouldn't consider it particularly ironic, this has been on the cards for years. It's only been a financial crisis and a certain reluctance to make the decision that has prevented it happening before. C-19 has just pushed the Zoological Society into realising it has to make this choice now rather than continuing to try and make both sites work and slowly transition.
Anyone who knows Bristol will know that the land that the zoo sits on is perhaps the most exclusive part of the whole city, it'll be worth millions with planning permission for residential. Hopefully those millions get used to turn Wild Place Project into a quality zoo. Look at the way that Paignton Zoo redeveloped itself in the 90s/early 00s as an example - having been to both zoos, Wild Place Project feels much more like Paignton than the old Clifton site and WPP has about 50% extra space than Paignton. Paignton before it's TB issues was probably a better zoo than Bristol.
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For what it's worth I think this is all entirely on-topic given we are discussing the various factors which lead collections to make the sorts of choices Bristol is liable to face once this move has taken place
I might split this whole "2022 closure of the original Bristol zoo site" news and resulting discussion into another thread a little later given its significance, but won't be doing so right now.
This is extremely sad news, such a historic site that has no doubt been a wonderful zoo over the years. Sadly, I have never had the luxury to visit Bristol but with that 2022 deadline getting a visit in before its doors close sounds like a very good idea right now. It is great that Wild Place exists and that the society will be able to continue its endeavours and I'm sure the relocation of Bristol's collection there over time will surely make Wild Place continue to be a zoo looked at with most interest.
JurassicMax
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I was thinking, the imminent closure of Bristol zoo has made visiting this zoo a top priority for me!
Even if he was, the locals would kick off massively. The average house price around that area is something like £1.5m. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of such politics, I doubt any development would ever get built with 40% affordable houses there.
I think general culture is a much bigger factor than anything "engineered" by zoos themselves. That zoos then highlight megafauna (which is, perhaps, different from ABC) probably reflects that culture. And will continue to do so unless someone publishes (and sells in huge quantities) "Ollie the Olingo". Or, perhaps, a price comparison website features a Potto in its adverts.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
Yes, the most familiar Ring-tailed Lemur was called 'Dotty'and appeared with Johnny Morris on 'Animal Magic'. Animal Magic (which does of course tie in nicely with the thread title!) They were a major rarity otherwise.
The underground scenes in 'Meerkats United' were filmed at the Natural History Unit in Bristol with animals from Cotswold. We had kept them privately some some years before that as Ravensden imported them annually from Africa along with a few Yellow, Marsh, Cape Grey and Banded Mongooses, Springhares, Greater Bushbabies etc. It took a good many years before the Meerkats really became established.
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Giant Panda cannot be viewed as any sort of umbrella species in the UK since we hardly have any!
The paper, which is very interesting, is about in-situ conservation. By the Chinese. Which is a very different matter from ex-situ work in the UK.
I don't like it when zoos invest large sums in housing run of the mill species, but if offering camels and zebras help to fund the specialist stuff that's more than fine to me.
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I like the possibility of "Ollie the olingo" or "potto pot noodles"
Maybe it is indeed innate to humans, this fascination with big cats and megafauna.
There was that study (was it E.O. Wilson?) that proposed that we like open spaces and lawns precisely due to our evolutionary history in the African grasslands so perhaps there is something similarly innate at work with large African (and what were once European too) species ?
When you think about it, the caves of Chauvet and Lascaux are testament to the fascination and reverence that Magdalenian era hunter-gatherer humans had for lions and bears and hoofstock.
However, all that considered and granted, I do not personally like a zoo to develop excessively along those lines for obvious ex-situ conservation based reasons.
Perhaps the best alternative (which I believe you are hinting at Andrew) is a few "charismatics" and many species of conservation concern which is arguably what Bristol had anyway with their gorillas and lions.
Longlive the Jersey spectacled bears, gorillas and orangutangs then ! (meerkats and Asian short clawed otters a different matter though ! ).
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I wasn't suggesting it could (quite the opposite in fact as I am very cynical about giant pandas in zoos)though the pandas at Edinburgh and the historic pandas at London zoo (that inspired the iconic WWF logo) seem a notable example.
I don't like that tendency in zoos either and I think it should be resisted as much as possible but ultimately as I said above perhaps the necessary compromise is a few "charismatics" (though what these are, how they are defined and whether they have to be African or Asian big cats is open for debate).
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree it is a much bigger factor and I also agree that there is probably a kind of feedback loop at work.
However, all that considered and granted, I do not personally like a zoo to develop excessively along those lines for obvious ex-situ conservation based reasons.
Perhaps the best alternative (which I believe you are hinting at Andrew) is a few "charismatics" and many species of conservation concern which is arguably what Bristol had anyway with their gorillas and lions.
Longlive the Jersey spectacled bears, gorillas and orangutangs then ! (meerkats and Asian short clawed otters a different matter though ! ).
I think that is absolutely correct.