To what extent is space necessary in an enclosure?

CheeseChameleon2007 said:
I mean, If you went to a zoo you could sort of see it for yourself........:confused:
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No you can't, unless you know of aquatic exhibits of 2-3 acres in size used for such pelagic species? The point here is, there is a world of difference between not being able to keep something because it's simply too expensive to display or not being able to keep something because it just doesn't fare well in a captive environment.
 
Jarne said:
No you can't, unless you know of aquatic exhibits of 2-3 acres in size used for such pelagic species? The point here is, there is a world of difference between not being able to keep something because it simply it's too expensive to display or not being able to keep something because it just doesn't fare well in a captive environment.
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My bad, I was referring to when you said there was no proof that Elephants were suitable in a 2-3 acre habitat with all the basic needs, and In reply, I meant there are lots of zoos that do this kind of thing, and to prove it you could visit the zoo for yourself.
 
Jarne said:
And again, this isn't what you said initially. No one denies that aquaria can't provide what those species need. People just question this statement:

for which you haven't given any proof at all. So again the question: do you have proof of this statement? Cause here you essentially state that when given 2-3 acres of space, with proper furnishing of the exhibit, that those large aquatic species still couldn't be kept.
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Perhaps you are not aware, but aquariums have attempted to hold pelagic oceanic megafauna, such as great whites, fin whales, blue marlins, mako sharks, and thresher sharks in the past. Almost all of the specimens died shortly after being put on exhibit, or in the space of a few months thereafter. The only aquarium to have any success with great whites was Monterey Bay, and even they could not hold one longer than a few years due to the sharks’ tendency to damage their rostrums by bumping into the glass. Many attempts have been made for many ocean-going, pelagic species. None have been unqualified successes. You are correct that blue whales have never been kept. And an elephant is not comparable to a blue whale in terms of size — nothing can measure up to the blue whale, as I’m sure you know. But since you clearly do not believe anything I say, I will go find the proper scientific journals that affirm all of the above, and get back with you.
 
imaginarius said:
Perhaps you are not aware, but aquariums have attempted to hold pelagic oceanic megafauna, such as great whites, fin whales, blue marlins, mako sharks, and thresher sharks in the past. Almost all of the specimens died shortly after being put on exhibit, or in the space of a few months thereafter. The only aquarium to have any success with great whites was Monterey Bay, and even they could not hold one longer than a few years due to the sharks’ tendency to damage their rostrums by bumping into the glass. Many attempts have been made for many ocean-going, pelagic species. None have been unqualified successes. You are correct that blue whales have never been kept. And an elephant is not comparable to a blue whale in terms of size — nothing can measure up to the blue whale, as I’m sure you know. But since you clearly do not believe anything I say, I will go find the proper scientific journals that affirm all of the above, and get back with you.
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But what he's trying to say is we have never actually seen a pelagic species held in 2-3 acre exhibits like elephants so we don't know if it's captivity or just the size of the tanks
 
CheeseChameleon2007 said:
I think what @birdsandbats meant, they weren't exhibited for a fairly long time, therefore, not proven to be That successful. At leas thats what I think he meant.
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Ok well they rescued that grey whale and then released under the guide of US fish and wildlife. The animal was kept for a few years successfully and then released for a different reason. It was not released because it wasn't being held correctly it was released because the US fish and wildlife service deemed it releasable and it was taking up space in the Orca exhibit.
 
imaginarius said:
They had six, I believe, over the span of 8 years (2004-2012). Some only for a few months, others longer. I believe the longest one kept was a few years.
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I was only aware of one being kept for around 2-3 weeks, but I'm not proven to be that reliable and your probably right.
 
Westcoastperson said:
Ok well they rescued that grey whale and then released under the guide of US fish and wildlife. The animal was kept for a few years successfully and then released for a different reason. It was not released because it wasn't being held correctly
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Exactly. None of us are sure, that was just my attempt at explaining the post out of assumption.
 
CheeseChameleon2007 said:
I think what @birdsandbats meant, they weren't exhibited for a fairly long time, therefore, not proven to be That successful. At leas thats what I think he meant.
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They had to release the Gray Whale because its size and space needs were impractical. Although it may theoretically be possible to keep the species, in practice it is not possible.
 
imaginarius said:
Perhaps you are not aware, but aquariums have attempted to hold pelagic oceanic megafauna, such as great whites, fin whales, blue marlins, mako sharks, and thresher sharks in the past. Almost all of the specimens died shortly after being put on exhibit, or in the space of a few months thereafter. The only aquarium to have any success with great whites was Monterey Bay, and even they could not hold one longer than a few years due to the sharks’ tendency to damage their rostrums by bumping into the glass. Many attempts have been made for many ocean-going, pelagic species. None have been unqualified successes. You are correct that blue whales have never been kept. And an elephant is not comparable to a blue whale in terms of size — nothing can measure up to the blue whale, as I’m sure you know. But since you clearly do not believe anything I say, I will go find the proper scientific journals that affirm all of the above, and get back with you.
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I'm very much aware of the attempts with great whites at Monterey bay and other aquaria, but have you any knowledge of a 2-3 acre tank with great whites? As said before I do acknowledge that in the tanks that are currently present, keeping those pelagic species is impossible. Quite probably we will never be able to house those pelagic species due to their high costs. However as me and others have quite clearly stated before and what you simply keep reading over:
Westcoastperson said:
But what he's trying to say is we have never actually seen a pelagic species held in 2-3 acre exhibits like elephants so we don't know if it's captivity or just the size of the tanks
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You are comparing an elephant in a 2-3 acre exhibit with a great white in a tank that's only a fraction of that, and based on that saying that pelagic species require more space then those elephants. If you want a fair comparison, you need to go back decades in time and see how elephants, rhinos and giraffes fared in tiny boring exhibits. And the answer to that, not that well to be honest. Now we have given those terrestrial species more space, and they do seem to be fine with it. So why can't this be the same for aquatic species when you would give them comparably large enclosures?
 
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imaginarius said:
They had six, I believe, over the span of 8 years (2004-2012). Some only for a few months, others longer. I believe the longest one kept was a few years.
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Not quite a few years; the longest a Great White was exhibited at Monterey was 198 days, before it had to be released due to aggression with its tank-mates.
 
TZDugong said:
Not quite a few years; the longest a Great White was exhibited at Monterey was 198 days, before it had to be released due to aggression with its tank-mates.
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And wasn't there one who refused to eat the cold dead fish that was given to them?
 
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