Government plans to shake up private keeping of monkeys

[taun]

Monkeys could be banned as pets, says government

I know a lot on here will see this as good news. But there is undercurrent of anti-zoo within this, they using some of the same arguments that are used in banning zoos. Esp the quotes from Lord Goldsmith (but I don't think anyone will be surprised by that).

RSPCA obviously highlighting the extreme cases in irresponsible owners.

 

[TriUK]

This is a good thing is it not? I’ve just read the article and didn’t pick up on an anti-zoo agenda within its text. However, I agree the current Tory government is very unsupportive of zoos though & with Brexit it’s even worse!

 

[FBBird]

Not good news if it stops private people keeping primates in appropriate enclosures, as opposed to ‘pets’

 

[taun]

Not good news if it stops private people keeping primates in appropriate enclosures, as opposed to ‘pets’

This is what the veil is, measure could be a complete ban to banning inappropriate housing (which I think can safely say I we ALL agree with). And it one step on the way of stopping animals being kept, how can you go about closing zoos when any tom, dick or harry can keep a monkey?

Its a slippery slope, what next exotic birds?

 

[Fallax]

This will really depend on how extensive the new regulations will be, hopefully, it is not a complete ban.

 

[littleRedPanda]

Apart from satisfying the owner, is there any benefit served by the general public owning pet monkeys?

 

[Jurek7]

How many monkeys are kept privately in the UK to begin with? Britain, together with the EU, already has rather lengthy regulations concerning keeping primates. Why it is not sufficient?

Looks like another solution looking for a problem.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I don't think this is actually a bad thing in the long-term when it comes to "pet ownership" of monkeys.

It may well be terrible for responsible owners of primates in the UK but ultimately even if these are being kept under the best of conditions I do not believe these should be being kept as pets anyway.

 

[Zia]

How many monkeys are kept privately in the UK to begin with? Britain, together with the EU, already has rather lengthy regulations concerning keeping primates. Why it is not sufficient?

Looks like another solution looking for a problem.

Pet ownership of the likes of marmosets / squirrel monkeys is a bigger problem than you might imagine.

 

[taun]

Apart from satisfying the owner, is there any benefit served by the general public owning pet monkeys?

Potentially species saving, how many birds species are not extinct due to private keepers? quite a few I believe.

Unfortunately people only see the worse cases, where people shouldn't be keeping them. There is a place for private keepers along side zoos.

 

[taun]

How many monkeys are kept privately in the UK to begin with? Britain, together with the EU, already has rather lengthy regulations concerning keeping primates. Why it is not sufficient?

Looks like another solution looking for a problem.

It says on the article about 5,000.

 

[giant_anteater]

Potentially species saving, how many birds species are not extinct due to private keepers? quite a few I believe.

Unfortunately people only see the worse cases, where people shouldn't be keeping them. There is a place for private keepers along side zoos.

I absolutely agree there is a place for private keepers alongside zoos. 100%. But I don’t think that realistically private primate keepers are potentially saving any species. With birds, reptiles, fish and maybe even some rodents and other small mammals, sure. Private keepers are absolutely necessary and potentially very important for conservation. But primates? I’m not so sure. I can’t imagine there are many primate species in private hands (in the uk at least) that aren’t kept managed by some sort of zoo breeding programme. And if there are I’d assume they’re only in very small numbers, without much genetic diversity.

Besides, the keepers who have these more specialist primates are likely to be the ones keeping them properly, in zoo quality enclosures. As far as I can tell this new license will mostly effect the sort of muppets who keep marmosets in budgie cages in their kitchen.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Potentially species saving, how many birds species are not extinct due to private keepers? quite a few I believe.

Unfortunately people only see the worse cases, where people shouldn't be keeping them. There is a place for private keepers along side zoos.

With all due respect these are not at all the same kinds of issues.

A better reframing of the question might be how many species of primate are not extinct or have benefitted from ex situ conservation due to private keepers ?

(Of course I concede that there haven't been any recent Holocene primate extinctions that we know about)

 

[gentle lemur]

Monkey World has campaigned against keeping primates as pets for many years. Alison Cronin has posted a video on Facebook about this. There is also link for people who wish to send their comments to the Government during the public consultation period which ends on 6th February 2021, https://consult.defra.gov.uk/.../prim.../consultation/intro/

 

[Jarne]

I think there is certainly room for private primate keepers, and they could even become an important player in driving ex-situ conservation of small monkeys. However more insight into how each person keeps these monkeys and more collaboration with zoo breeding programs would be needed for that. Most species are already very much represented in zoos and least concern, partially logical as those are the easiest to get. Personally however I don't mind people doing this, as long as they are well taken care off. In fact I don't see the big difference between housing a group rabbits and a group of marmosets. Both are wild animals in behavior, both are not housed properly in most cases but can be housed properly in captivity and both don't contribute much to conservation. In the end the only species I believe is truly domesticated is dogs. Most others I'd just call habituated to people (just as zoo-animals often are) and bred to look less wild, but in behavior still very much wild animals.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I think there is certainly room for private primate keepers, and they could even become an important player in driving ex-situ conservation of small monkeys. However more insight into how each person keeps these monkeys and more collaboration with zoo breeding programs would be needed for that. Most species are already very much represented in zoos and least concern, partially logical as those are the easiest to get. Personally however I don't mind people doing this, as long as they are well taken care off. In fact I don't see the big difference between housing a group rabbits and a group of marmosets. Both are wild animals in behavior, both are not housed properly in most cases but can be housed properly in captivity and both don't contribute much to conservation. In the end the only species I believe is truly domesticated is dogs. Most others I'd just call habituated to people (just as zoo-animals often are) and bred to look less wild, but in behavior still very much wild animals.

There is definitely a huge difference between housing a group of rabbits and a group of marmosets, trust me on that.

Moreover, I don't think private primate keepers will ever become important players in the ex-situ conservation of small primates like Callitrichids.

There has been a long time for this to historically happen and it never has and the motives for keeping these are never related to conservation. In fact if I'm totally honest with you private owners have historically been part of the problem.

The central role in the conservation of Callitrichids belongs with zoos and private captive breeding facilities (which are obviously very different from pet owners).

 

[Jarne]

There is definitely a huge difference between housing a group of rabbits and a group of marmosets, trust me on that.

And that difference is, in terms of welfare at least? You got two groups of social species that are not truly domesticated, and both are known to do well under circumstances that a decent keeper can provide. Yes a group of marmosets requires more knowledge about their diet and illnesses and you need to be able to give them vertical space and a heated indoor area. But what many zoos provide can definitively be provided by a well willing private keeper, even though it is more expensive then let's say a decent rabbit pen. The only true difference I see is that it's socially accepted to keep rabbits in horrible circumstances whilst it isn't for marmosets.

 

[Jarne]

In fact if I'm totally honest with you private owners have historically been part of the problem.

So has that been a problem with fish, reptile, amphibian and bird trade, and even with zoos in the days of wild-capture. That a sector has historically been a source of problems doesn't mean that in present day it should be treated as problematic. Often regulating things has a far better effect then banning things altogether.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

So has that been a problem with fish, reptile, amphibian and bird trade, and even with zoos in the days of wild-capture. That a sector has historically been a source of problems doesn't mean that in present day it should be treated as problematic. Often regulating things has a far better effect then banning things altogether.

Trust me on this, I work in conservation of Callitrichids and it is an extremely different situation.

The husbandry needs of these primates and in fact primates in general are so much more complex than those of fish, reptiles and most amphibians and birds and cannot typically be met well by anything but trained professionals in zoos. They do not make good pets and should not be treated as such.

In the UK and Europe there is no longer an illegal trade in Callitrichids as such but in Brazil we are seeing a resurgence in illegal poaching and trafficking of these animals particularly with the Leontopithecus. One of the historic causes of the decline of the golden lion tamarin in its wild state was the illegal pet trade with animals being sent to Europe, the United States and Japan.

 

[taun]

With all due respect these are not at all the same kinds of issues.

A better reframing of the question might be how many species of primate are not extinct or have benefitted from ex situ conservation due to private keepers ?

(Of course I concede that there haven't been any recent Holocene primate extinctions that we know about)

Its what it leads too, if a ban comes in. This government already tried to screw zoos over in the pandemic by making it so hard to receive help that if they did qualify it would nearly be too late to save them. This is the issue here, just someone brought up whats the benefit of keeping them in private hands and I suggested a potential benefit.