Beaver reintroductions in the UK

[Jurek7]

The seminal work on wolf attacks on humans is 'The fear of wolves: A review of wolf attacks on humans.' Attacks were extremely rare, mostly by rabid wolves. This was even when wolves routinely killed and scavenged domestic livestock.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_wolves_A_review_of_wolf_attacks_on_humans

Beavers, wolves, lynx and brown bears live now in parts of Europe with higher human density and land use than Britain. And the majority of people in Britain support reintroductions. The sole reason is that in Britain, a small minority of land owners can block reintroductions.

This means that wild animals can return in one of two ways: as accidental escapees (like wild boar, goshawks and some beavers) or by finding a large area of land with sympathetic owner(s), releasing animals, and hope that other land owners don't bother about them post factum. On the continental Europe, for example in Germany, reintroduction of wild animals in a bureaucratic nightmare, but beavers, wolves and red deer were accepted post factum.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

The seminal work on wolf attacks on humans is 'The fear of wolves: A review of wolf attacks on humans.' Attacks were extremely rare, mostly by rabid wolves. This was even when wolves routinely killed and scavenged domestic livestock.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_wolves_A_review_of_wolf_attacks_on_humans

Beavers, wolves, lynx and brown bears live now in parts of Europe with higher human density and land use than Britain. And the majority of people in Britain support reintroductions. The sole reason is that in Britain, a small minority of land owners can block reintroductions.

This means that wild animals can return in one of two ways: as accidental escapees (like wild boar, goshawks and some beavers) or by finding a large area of land with sympathetic owner(s), releasing animals, and hope that other land owners don't bother about them post factum. On the continental Europe, for example in Germany, reintroduction of wild animals in a bureaucratic nightmare, but beavers, wolves and red deer were accepted post factum.

Finally something we agree upon.

 

[Terry Thomas]

According to a Slovenian Wolf expert there are no substantiated cases of a wild Wolf killing a person in Europe (it has happened in the US and in a captive setting). Naturally Wolves are shy animals. They do kill livestock (mainly Sheep), but with the right fencing (which is subsidized) you can limit this to a huge extent. Even then every documented Wolf kill will get you compensation. That said, when looking at the number of livestock killed by Wolves, it is completely dwarved when compared to the number of animals domestic dogs kill. Culling problematic Wolves might be necessary in the future, but currently there is a lot of potential free space accross the continent and the population is nowhere near carrying capacity.

Compared to Wolves, Brown Bears are a much larger potential human-wildlife conflict as they are omnivorous and will scavenge near human settlements (notorious example is the city of Brasov in Romania). Even then Brown Bear attacks are very rare and are mostly caused by stupid people, not by the bear...

I knew that someone would pick me up on suggesting that wolves may kill a human if introduced into the wild in UK! Thank you. Wolves are fairly big animals and quite capable of taking a human, especially as they normally hunt in packs. Don't know if you have ever been close to a wolf, with no barrier between you and them, but I have, and can tell you that it is an interesting experience. I was always pleased to be getting out! I would also point out that dingoes have killed people, and they are no-where near the size of even a small wolf. In a country as small in area as Scotland, it seems to me that some common sense should be exercised before potentially dangerous animals are released, even into very large enclosures. There are probably some species that could be released there, but I am not convinced that that there would not be problems in the future. There are fairly good reasons that several animal species that once roamed parts of UK are no longer there! Much as one could wish to return to the past, I would again suggest that common sense says no!

e

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I knew that someone would pick me up on suggesting that wolves may kill a human if introduced into the wild in UK! Thank you. Wolves are fairly big animals and quite capable of taking a human, especially as they normally hunt in packs. Don't know if you have ever been close to a wolf, with no barrier between you and them, but I have, and can tell you that it is an interesting experience. I was always pleased to be getting out! I would also point out that dingoes have killed people, and they are no-where near the size of even a small wolf. In a country as small in area as Scotland, it seems to me that some common sense should be exercised before potentially dangerous animals are released, even into very large enclosures. There are probably some species that could be released there, but I am not convinced that that there would not be problems in the future. There are fairly good reasons that several animal species that once roamed parts of UK are no longer there! Much as one could wish to return to the past, I would again suggest that common sense says no!

e

The problem is that there is a very persistent eco-mythology about the wolf about it never representing a threat to man.

Wolves are one of the most maligned animals and so much of the urban legends / folklore out there about them is total rubbish.

However, attacks and fatal ones at that do occasionally happen and regardless of how much we love the wolf and wish to see it take its rightful place in the foodchain once again there is no point in denying that or covering it up with romanticised bulls***.

Far better to recognise the facts as they stand and to avoid the fiction on both sides of this very polemical debate that always surrounds wolves.

Personally, I think they are best seen, appreciated and conserved in Spain and Italy and I really don't think it is feasible to be bringing them back to the UK.

Incidentally on the thread's original subject and keeping with the theme of fatal attacks on humans even the Eurasian beaver can apparently kill human beings.

Beaver kills man in Belarus

 

[Ned]

I live in an area with a large deer population, driving down the unlit main road home I'm always a little nervous that a deer might run out in front of me. I could end up injured even dead but I think it would be wrong to eliminate animals just because they are a threat to us. We would have to cull all large carnivores in parts of the world inhabited by humans.
I see no common sense in that.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I live in an area with a large deer population, driving down the unlit main road home I'm always a little nervous that a deer might run out in front of me. I could end up injured even dead but I think it would be wrong to eliminate animals just because they are a threat to us. We would have to cull all large carnivores in parts of the world inhabited by humans.
I see no common sense in that.

Yes, but I don't think anyone here is arguing for eliminating large predators, quite the opposite actually.

Personally, I would love to see wolves return to occupy all of their prior historic range whether that is the UK, Ireland, France, Portugal, Mexico etc.

I understand that there is a huge problem with overpopulation of deer in many countries such as the UK where the wolf was once native and where it controlled these populations and it would be wonderful if it could be reintroduced.

The question is whether it is feasible to reintroduce them given the complex environmental needs that these animals have and the socio-ecological context of the UK.

Personally I do not think it is possible given the immense amounts of space that these predators require (which is not possible to give over to these animals in the uk which is one of the most urbanized nations on earth) and because of the inevitable human-wildlife conflict which will follow.

To be honest it is challenging enough to conserve the wolf in areas of Europe where it clung on and managed to avoid being erradicated such as Spain and Italy. Rural areas in those countries are very sparsely populated and have far more existing habitat for large predators than the UK ever will but still the human-wolf conflict intensifies and leads to animals being poisoned and shot.

 

[Ned]

I was really replying to the notion that wolves are dangerous and the common sense point of view would be that they shouldn't be introduced. I think this mentality condemns all but the most benign species to extinction.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I was really replying to the notion that wolves are dangerous and the common sense point of view would be that they shouldn't be introduced. I think this mentality condemns all but the most benign species to extinction.

Yes, well I agree with you on that.

I actually don't really care so much that they are potentially dangerous to people as most mammals including the smaller ones can be given the right circumstances and I don't think that automatically disqualifies an animal from reintroduction.

For me it is more that some of my fellow conservationists seem to be in the habit of promulgating feel good myths about wolves which are just totally fictitious and I think we need to be scientific about this and recognise the facts.

As I've said my other point that I feel strongly about is just how unrealistic it is in terms of the failure to recognize that the current environmental conditions of the UK (and Ireland) are nowhere near suitable for wolves.

Whatsmore why are they talking about the wolf ?

The Eurasian wildcat is still extant in the UK and the "Scottish wildcat" subspecies currently stands on the prescipice of extinction.

This is a small endemic carnivore whose conservation absolutely should be the priority and should be at the center of the discussion on rewilding in the UK.

 

[Pantherinae]

The Eurasian wildcat is still extant in the UK and the "Scottish wildcat" subspecies currently stands on the prescipice of extinction.

This is a small endemic carnivore whose conservation absolutely should be the priority and should be at the center of the discussion on rewilding in the UK.

Scottish Wildcat Action and other organisations are already working intensely on providing conservation for the Scottish wildcat.

The main threat that this species currently faces would not affect other reintroduced species, such as the Eurasian lynx. Feral cats breed with Scottish wildcats, leading to hybridisation of the species. In addition, feral cats are spreading disease to Scottish wildcats. Despite neutering feral cats and euthanising diseased individuals, the presence of feral cats appears to be a complex issue that is causing the population of pure Scottish wildcats to decline.

Nevertheless, I believe that prioritising the conservation of one species should not mean that the reintroduction of other species should be postponed or omitted.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Scottish Wildcat Action and other organisations are already working intensely on providing conservation for the Scottish wildcat.

The main threat that this species currently faces would not affect other reintroduced species, such as the Eurasian lynx. Feral cats breed with Scottish wildcats, leading to hybridisation of the species. In addition, feral cats are spreading disease to Scottish wildcats. Despite neutering feral cats and euthanising diseased individuals, the presence of feral cats appears to be a complex issue that is causing the population of pure Scottish wildcats to decline.

Nevertheless, I believe that prioritising the conservation of one species should not mean that the reintroduction of other species should be postponed or omitted.

Yes, they are indeed working with the species as are many other organizations apparently and good on them as the wildcat needs all the support it can get.

Much more needs to be done for this neglected species and I would argue that it is reintroducing the Eurasian wildcat back to the UK (Scotland, England, Wales) which should be at the forefront of rewilding efforts.

I'll admit here that I feel very strongly about the conservation of the wildcat because it is facing a similar situation to our marmosets here in Brazil (which were also very neglected species for far too long) with hybridization.

Postponed is a very strong word indeed and it seems to imply that reintroduction of the wolf is imminent (which it isn't) but in my own opinion I believe scrapped would be a far better term as it is a romantic but ultimately futile idea and it is unlikely to have any future.

 

[Pantherinae]

Postponed is a very strong word indeed and it seems to imply that reintroduction of the wolf is imminent (which it isn't) but in my own opinion I believe scrapped would be a far better term as it is a romantic but ultimately futile idea.

I agree that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf is not imminent, however I do believe there is a strong opportunity to reintroduce the Eurasian lynx in the near future.

Reintroduction relies on the public's perception of a species. I do not think education will convince the British public that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf or Eurasian brown bear is a good idea. However, I do think that the public may grow to accept the reintroduction of the Eurasian lynx in rural parts of Scotland and northern England.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I agree that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf is not imminent, however I do believe there is a strong opportunity to reintroduce the Eurasian lynx in the near future.

Reintroduction relies on the public's perception of a species. I do not think education will convince the British public that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf or Eurasian brown bear is a good idea. However, I do think that the public may grow to accept the reintroduction of the Eurasian lynx in rural parts of Scotland and northern England.

The Eurasian lynx would be a far better candidate for reintroduction / rewilding in my opinion but even with that species it is likely be an uphill struggle.

These kind of initiatives are never easy and when it involves a carnivore (whether large or small) they are even harder.

 

[Zorro]

I agree that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf is not imminent, however I do believe there is a strong opportunity to reintroduce the Eurasian lynx in the near future.

Reintroduction relies on the public's perception of a species. I do not think education will convince the British public that the reintroduction of the Eurasian wolf or Eurasian brown bear is a good idea. However, I do think that the public may grow to accept the reintroduction of the Eurasian lynx in rural parts of Scotland and northern England.

I would agree the Lynx would be a good idea for the UK even if the media called them big cats, they are really quite small I could not really see them becoming a problem!

 

[Jurek7]

Don't know if you have ever been close to a wolf, with no barrier between you and them, but I have, and can tell you that it is an interesting experience.

LOL. It is impossible to be close to a wild wolf, because the wolf will immediately run away.

For me it is more that some of my fellow conservationists seem to be in the habit of promulgating feel good myths about wolves which are just totally fictitious and I think we need to be scientific about this and recognise the facts.

Do you realize that those conservationists would be the first to be killed if wolves killed humans? They foremost spend long time in wolf habitat with no protection. For them, even seeing a wolf briefly and from far away is a very rare event, which is coveted and which makes their friends jealous.

Wolves live in Europe in areas populated by millions of people, who live, farm, go to school, play, hike, picnic, cycle, camp, fish, pick berries and do all the other activities in and immediately next to forests where wolves live.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Do you realize that those conservationists would be the first to be killed if wolves killed humans? They foremost spend long time in wolf habitat with no protection. For them, even seeing a wolf briefly and from far away is a very rare event, which is coveted and which makes their friends jealous.

Wolves live in Europe in areas populated by millions of people, who live, farm, go to school, play, hike, picnic, cycle, camp, fish, pick berries and do all the other activities in and immediately next to forests where wolves live.

Yes, @Jurek7 I do realise that because an acquiantance of mine is a conservation biologist who works with wolves and bear in Northern Spain. I have actually been to track wolves (unfortunately never glimpsed them) and brown bear with him.

Conservationists who work with wolves may never have any personal experience of encountering aggression from a wolf. My friend in Spain for example has never experienced anything like that.

However, a good conservationist also has significant training in science and so would be familiar with the literature and the cases of wolf attacks.

Furthermore, they would recognise that just because they have not personally experienced an aggressive wolf doesn't mean that these animals cannot behave aggressively or become predators of humans under the right ecological or epidemiological stressors.

Yes, wolves live alongside people in continental Europe where there are still significant and continuous tracts of ancient forest and sufficient habitat left. However, that is not the case in the UK at all as we both know.

 

[GaryA]

I'm all for reintroducing some mega fauna to the UK. If nothing else, it would make the late night trip to the rubbish bins an exciting experience!

It might also clear up some of the drunken yobs roaming the streets in packs for fear of being eaten by wolves!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

It might also clear up some of the drunken yobs roaming the streets in packs for fear of being eaten by wolves!

It only occasionally clears one or two drunks up in rural Russia so might not be a sufficient population regulator of yobs in the UK.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

@Jurek7 Basically my point is that it should be left to the other side the one who want to erradicate wolves to deal in lies and falsehoods and mythology and ignorance.

It disappoints me that conservation biologists are just the opposite side of the same coin in terms of spreading lies and ignorance even if these are well intentioned.

The scientific picture of the wolf neither resembles the image painted by the ignorant medieval village idiots who hate and fear it or that of the neo-hippies who worship it but something independent in terms of behaviour and ecology of human judgement about it and that is a good thing.

 

[Jana]

Furthermore, they would recognize that just because they have not personally experienced an aggressive wolf doesn't mean that these animals cannot behave aggressively or become predators of humans under the right ecological or epidemiological stressors.

I´m on Jurek´s side in this case. Personally, I will rather face a pack of wolfes than an agressive pack of domestic dogs of large breed. Wolfs living in Europe have such immense fear and shyness around people that it´s basically impossible for them to attack a human (aside of a quick bite) unless they count you as a member of their pack.

We have a popular national dog breed called "vlčák" Czechoslovakian wolfdog - it´s a recognized breed containing 3/4 German shepherd blood and 1/4 Carpathian wolf. Even that small share of wolf makes majority of these dog unable to be properly trained in protection and police work. They are more shy than normal dogs and try to escape from difficult situations. They will bite if you disobey their warning (they are very vocal), but many are unable to attack an unknown human on command - unlike German shephard.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I´m on Jurek´s side in this case. Personally, I will rather face a pack of wolfes than an agressive pack of domestic dogs of large breed. Wolfs living in Europe have such immense fear and shyness around people that it´s basically impossible for them to attack a human (aside of a quick bite) unless they count you as a member of their pack.

We have a popular national dog breed called "vlčák" Czechoslovakian wolfdog - it´s a recognized breed containing 3/4 German shepherd blood and 1/4 Carpathian wolf. Even that small share of wolf makes majority of these dog unable to be properly trained in protection and police work. They are more shy than normal dogs and try to escape from difficult situations. They will bite if you disobey their warning (they are very vocal), but many are unable to attack an unknown human on command - unlike German shephard.

I don't know if there are any "sides" so to speak.

All I'm arguing for is that we recognise the reality that wolves occasionally are predators of man which is line with historical and scientific records / fact.

I fully agree that domestic dogs are more dangerous than wolves and that goes with all breeds including the smaller ones.

I'm all for wolf reintroduction when and where it is in countries with environmental conditions where this is feasible but I dont think in the case of the UK it is.