Australian and ( NZ) Elephants news and discussion

[Zoofan15]

Luk Chai has defenitly exceeded expectations with his introductions to not only Man Jai, but the girls as well. He is very calm and laid back, it would be interesting to know if his father Gung was similar personality wise at Luk Chai’s age. He is also very patient, which is a brilliant trait for a bull to have. From personal observation, he gave a lot of his own time to interact with the girls when they came over to his gate (as they were separated). He would definitely make a great father, hopefully in the near future.

Gung was very different to Luk Chai at that age. By the age of eight, he was regarded as an absolute nuisance to the cows. He was constantly challenging Porntip and Pak Boon (both pregnant by that stage) and they banned him from the upper paddock. They were all rather glad to see the back of him when he moved to his purpose built bull exhibit, which gave them the space they would have had in the wild,

Fast forward three years and Wildlife at the Zoo filmed a segment where Tang Mo visited him for breeding (accompanied by Thong Dee and Luk Chai for support). He largely ignored Tang Mo and Luk Chai, as Thong Dee has long been his favourite.

Taronga Western Plains Zoo have rarely (if ever) mentioned him having interactions with his sons; where as they often mentioned Sabai interacting with Luk Chai. This makes me think he was at best a neutral/disinterested influence; certainly not the engaged and patient role model his son is!

 

[Jambo]

Gung was very different to Luk Chai at that age. By the age of eight, he was regarded as an absolute nuisance to the cows. He was constantly challenging Porntip and Pak Boon (both pregnant by that stage) and they banned him from the upper paddock. They were all rather glad to see the back of him when he moved to his purpose built bull exhibit, which gave them the space they would have had in the wild,

Fast forward three years and Wildlife at the Zoo filmed a segment where Tang Mo visited him for breeding (accompanied by Thong Dee and Luk Chai for support). He largely ignored Tang Mo and Luk Chai, as Thong Dee has long been his favourite.

Taronga Western Plains Zoo have rarely (if ever) mentioned him having interactions with his sons; where as they often mentioned Sabai interacting with Luk Chai. This makes me think he was at best a neutral/disinterested influence; certainly not the engaged and patient role model his son is!

Yes, Gung was very boisterous and outgoing. He liked to pick and chose which girls he wanted to play with when he was younger. Tang Mo is a nice example. When she was younger, she was incredibly interested in Gung as a playmate. Gung often ignored her as he preferred Thong Dee at this time (and still does presumably). Once Gung hit puberty, he started to turn things around and showed a lot of interest in Tang Mo (as all bulls would). But Tang Mo said no, I’m going to ignore you just like you did to me, and that is apparently one of the reasons why Tang Mo would not allow Gung to mount her.

In that episode that you referenced @Zoofan15 , Gung attempted to mate both females (Thong Dee and Tang Mo), but distinctively ignored his three year old son, Luk Chai. Tang Mo continuously disallowed him to mate her, and so all his attention turned to Thong Dee, who not only interacted with him, but let him mate her whenever he wanted to.

I have personally never seen a post by TWPZ of Gung interacting with any of their other elephants in the past few years, that is aside from a few photos of him with the girls. On the other end of the spectrum, Bong Su (Melbourne’s late bull), was also very patient with the young calves and spent a lot of time mentoring Ongard, who loved spending time with his dad.

 

[Zoofan15]

An interesting note from the 2019/2020 Taronga Annual Report:

https://taronga.org.au/sites/default/files/2021-01/Taronga_Annual_Report_2019_2020.pdf

'Gung' the bull Asian Elephant has continued training and conditioning
for semen collection. The process is progressing well despite 'Gung’s' irregular musth cycles.

Since Melbourne Zoo have long been planning for a new bull; and Taronga Western Plains Zoo have bulls onsite; one can only assume this AI training was initially done with Pak Boon in mind.

It’s worth noting that this report is dated 30 June 2020; and Jai Dee died 13 October 2020. Since Jai Dee’s death, many of us have speculated Taronga Zoo will phase out their elephants as Auckland, Melbourne and Perth Zoo have committed to doing.

Irregardless of whether they’ve since abandoned this plan to do AI with Pak Boon (ahead of a transfer to Dubbo), it remains a worthwhile skill for Gung to learn. If Australia Zoo fail to secure the Sumatran bulls, then they especially may benefit from this.

 

[toothlessjaws]

With Perth, Melbourne and Auckland all doing the right thing and declaring an elephant phase-out, there is surely a lot of discussion at Taronga about following suit.

I wonder how much this conversation has been impacted by Sydney Zoo deciding to keep elephants? It was always going to be a harder choice for Taronga because unlike Werribee, which is just over a 1/2 hour drive from Melbourne Zoo, Dubbo is not even remotely close enough to the capital to be a alternative zoo-trip for Sydneysiders.

I can see Taronga sending its two cows to Dubbo, only to replace them with Aucklands cows + Parthi Harn for the time being.

But I can also imagine them eyeing off the elephant exhibit for orang-utans....

Lets see if logic prevails.

 

[Zoofan15]

With Perth, Melbourne and Auckland all doing the right thing and declaring an elephant phase-out, there is surely a lot of discussion at Taronga about following suit.

I wonder how much this conversation has been impacted by Sydney Zoo deciding to keep elephants? It was always going to be a harder choice for Taronga because unlike Werribee, which is just over a 1/2 hour drive from Melbourne Zoo, Dubbo is not even remotely close enough to the capital to be a alternative zoo-trip for Sydneysiders.

I can see Taronga sending its two cows to Dubbo, only to replace them with Aucklands cows + Parthi Harn for the time being.

But I can also imagine them eyeing off the elephant exhibit for orang-utans....

Lets see if logic prevails.

I believe Sydney Zoo’s acquisition of elephants has been the biggest barrier to the inevitable decision to phase out elephants from Taronga. They’re understandably reluctant to hand their rival the opportunity to have a huge (pun intended) point of difference; especially since Taronga has already been criticised by the general public for their decrease in species.

I doubt Auckland Zoo would consent to sending their elephants to Taronga alone, as the point of the export is to provide Anjalee with a multigenerational herd (as well as a bull to breed with naturally). The move is supposedly happening in six months, so they’ve theoretically decided the destination already (I will ask on my next visit).

Using the space for orangutans seems logical and would be a nice link with the Sumatran tiger exhibit. Though let’s hope if they do, that the focus is on exhibit space and supporting species; not gimmicks and fake aeroplanes!

 

[Jambo]

Luk Chai, at Melbourne Zoo has officially met all five females (Mek Kapah, Dokkon, Kulab, Num Oi and Mali).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2503883416584056

Luk Chai was seen with Kulab throughout most of the video, though Dokkon did make a tiny appearance. Kulab was sending a lot of time at Luk Chai’s gate when I visited about a week after he arrived, so they must be very close. Brilliant news for Melbourne, and my bet is on Kulab being the first to fall pregnant!

 

[Zorro]

Wonderful to see

 

[Tafin]

It'll be wonderful for Num Oi to finally have a calf.

 

[Jambo]

It'll be wonderful for Num Oi to finally have a calf.

Agreed. Num Oi has had the misfortune of losing both of her calves (Sanook and Willow), despite the fact that she is arguably the most maternal female in Melbourne’s herd. She plays the role of ‘Aunty’ wonderfully to the other calves born at Melbourne, Mali and Man Jai. She is best friends with Kulab, and it would be nice for the two of them to have calves around the same time.

 

[Zoofan15]

It'll be wonderful for Num Oi to finally have a calf.

Agreed. Num Oi has had the misfortune of losing both of her calves (Sanook and Willow), despite the fact that she is arguably the most maternal female in Melbourne’s herd. She plays the role of ‘Aunty’ wonderfully to the other calves born at Melbourne, Mali and Man Jai. She is best friends with Kulab, and it would be nice for the two of them to have calves around the same time.

The best thing about the move to Werribee Open Range Zoo is that matrilineal lines can now be formed from all three Thai imported cows, without the need to split the herd.

Dokoon is currently only one of two cows in the region to have a matrilineal line - and at 17 years old upon Mali’s birth, was the youngest to form one (Porntip was 26 years old).

Kulab and Num Oi will be in their early twenties at least before they have a chance to form their own (and that’s if they have female calves), but it will be rewarding to see nonetheless.

 

[Zorro]

The best thing about the move to Werribee Open Range Zoo is that matrilineal lines can now be formed from all three Thai imported cows, without the need to split the herd.

Dokoon is currently only one of two cows in the region to have a matrilineal line - and at 17 years old upon Mali’s birth, was the youngest to form one (Porntip was 26 years old).

Kulab and Num Oi will be in their early twenties at least before they have a chance to form their own (and that’s if they have female calves), but it will be rewarding to see nonetheless.

I believe the move to Werribee can not come quick enough and provide much more opportunities for the herd to grow and develop!

 

[Jambo]

The best thing about the move to Werribee Open Range Zoo is that matrilineal lines can now be formed from all three Thai imported cows, without the need to split the herd.

Dokoon is currently only one of two cows in the region to have a matrilineal line - and at 17 years old upon Mali’s birth, was the youngest to form one (Porntip was 26 years old).

Kulab and Num Oi will be in their early twenties at least before they have a chance to form their own (and that’s if they have female calves), but it will be rewarding to see nonetheless.

It would be a wonder to see a large herd of female Elephants at WORZ in say, the next 25 years. Zoos around the world are only just beginning to establish matrilines, though EEHV is slightly delaying this with some zoos. Chester was a nice example with a herd consisting of three generations of girls a few years back.

It’s a shame we lost Tukta two years ago, as she would have started Taronga’s second generation of calves, which will now have to wait until Kanlaya (2018) is of age. Mali and Luk Chai (the first male and female born in Australia) will ironically welcome the first second generation calf hopefully soon.

Kulab and Num Oi are only 21 and 20, and so with natural intervals could still produce four calves each until they are post reproductive. It will be interesting to see whether Werribee go far natural or artificial intervals; in the past Melbourne and Taronga used artificial intervals because of spatial reasons, but with Werribee’s new complex this shouldn’t be an issue.

 

[Yassa]

You need to keep in mind that many if not most unrelated adult females become incompartible/hostile with each other as soon as each has her own family (2 or more calves). That has happened in almost every european zoo that held more then one breeding female. So Dokkoon, Kulab and Num Oi may have to be kept seperated in the future.

 

[Jambo]

You need to keep in mind that many if not most unrelated adult females become incompartible/hostile with each other as soon as each has her own family (2 or more calves). That has happened in almost every european zoo that held more then one breeding female. So Dokkoon, Kulab and Num Oi may have to be kept seperated in the future.

Dokoon maybe, but Kulab and Num Oi are incredibly close, so I would find it unlikely that they will ever be incompatible with each other. In not all circumstances is this the case- thinking of Whipsnade here; but if it is, Werribee will have the space to hold the females in their separate herds.

 

[Zoo_jenga]

I visited Melbourne Zoo today to see Luk Chai for the first time.

In the barn they were doing taking some blood from Kulab and the keeper came out afterwards to explain what was happening. She explained that when Ongard was born, due to his size she suffered a prolapsed pelvis which has never healed properly. As such they have decided that she will be unable to safely become pregnant in the future. They will be regularly testing her to see if she is in extras (she was) so she can be separated from Luk Chai. The keeper did say the other two girls have will still be in contact with him and he seems to know what he is doing when it comes to mating.

 

[Zoofan15]

I visited Melbourne Zoo today to see Luk Chai for the first time.

In the barn they were doing taking some blood from Kulab and the keeper came out afterwards to explain what was happening. She explained that when Ongard was born, due to his size she suffered a prolapsed pelvis which has never healed properly. As such they have decided that she will be unable to safely become pregnant in the future. They will be regularly testing her to see if she is in extras (she was) so she can be separated from Luk Chai. The keeper did say the other two girls have will still be in contact with him and he seems to know what he is doing when it comes to mating.

Wow, we certainly didn’t know that! It explains why Kulab was never bred from again in the decade that’s followed Ongard’s birth. What a blow to the breeding programme and how sad that she’ll never form her own matriarchal line. She was apparently very maternally inclined to Num Oi’s newborn calf in 2016, touching her through the dividing bars during her short life.

From I’ve heard Kulab has been showing the most interest in Luk Chai; but if the focus is now on Dokoon and Num Oi breeding, lets hope that’s successful at least.

The positive here is Kulab’s son survived to adulthood and will now continue her line in the USA. The greater tragedy would be if she had lost her offspring like Num Oi, and had nothing to show for it.

 

[Hyak_II]

prolapsed pelvis

I'm reasonably certain a pelvis (or any other bone, for that matter) can't prolapse. You sure they didn't say she suffered a uterine prolapse instead?

From I’ve heard Kulab has been showing the most interest in Luk Chai; but if the focus is now on Dokoon and Num Oi breeding, lets hope that’s successful at least.

The positive here is Kulab’s son survived to adulthood and will now continue her line in the USA. The greater tragedy would be if she had lost her offspring like Num Oi, and had nothing to show for it.

I have no doubt Luk Chai will be successful with the other cows as long as they'll stand for him. Just cause one cow is particularly interested in a bull (or vise versa), doesn't mean the bull will ignore other estrus cows, as a general rule!

Also don't get your hopes up for Ongard. Knowing US management, they'll wait to get breeding cows for him until he's 25 years old, his first calf will die from a congenital issue, and then they'll "retire him" and replace him with a Calvin line male instead.

Edit: OR! they'll send him to a facility/acquire a female who won't stand for a bull, and instead of doing any more transfers, they'll just say he's the next "AI Bull", and then proceed to never actually use him for AI for the rest of his life.

 

[Zoofan15]

She explained that when Ongard was born, due to his size she suffered a prolapsed pelvis which has never healed properly.

I'm reasonably certain a pelvis (or any other bone, for that matter) can't prolapse. You sure they didn't say she suffered a uterine prolapse instead

I believe @Zoo_jenga is referring to pelvic organ prolapse. How it’s named depends on the organ (in this case the uterus), so you’re also correct to refer to it as uterine prolapse.

In humans, a hysterectomy is often recommended; but in Kulab’s case, not breeding again is the way to go.

Having read about a handful of rare incidences of this condition in elephants, I’d commend the vet team on successfully treating Kulab. Many elephant cows that suffer this have died, despite efforts to correct it.

I note also that @Zoo_jenga referred to only two cows breeding with Luk Chai (presumably Dokoon and Num Oi). I suspect the plan is to hold off on breeding 11 year old Mali for another three years, tying her birth in with another calf from Dokoon or Num Oi to achieve a two and two calving schedule like Melbourne Zoo did in 2010 (Dokoon and Kulab) and 2013 (Dokoon and Num Oi).

 

[Jambo]

I visited Melbourne Zoo today to see Luk Chai for the first time.

In the barn they were doing taking some blood from Kulab and the keeper came out afterwards to explain what was happening. She explained that when Ongard was born, due to his size she suffered a prolapsed pelvis which has never healed properly. As such they have decided that she will be unable to safely become pregnant in the future. They will be regularly testing her to see if she is in extras (she was) so she can be separated from Luk Chai. The keeper did say the other two girls have will still be in contact with him and he seems to know what he is doing when it comes to mating.

Devastating news, and I guess we now know why Kulab has unfortunately never conceived a calf since Ongard in 2010. He was an abnormally large calf, weighing in at 140kg at birth; and it was a miracle in itself that both Kulab and Ongard survived the ordeal. I too have my fingers crossed for Ongard to have children soon in the US.

Kulab was showing the most interest in Luk Chai, but it definitely won’t deter Luk Chai from mating the other two females if they allow him to mate (which I presume they should).

When I visited in December, I talked to a keeper and he stated that three females would have the chance to breed with Luk Chai, which I originally thought meant Kulab, Num Oi and Dokkon, but I wonder if he included Mali as a possibility as well. Num Oi and Dokkon would be the main focus though.

I assume from here on Melbourne will attempt to breed Num Oi and Dokkon so they both have a calf in 2023, before the big move to Werribee. From there on, there is no reason why they shouldn’t be bred naturally with four year age gaps; with the large amount of space they have.

I’ll ask more about Kulab, Mali’s breeding status and how the other females are going when I visit next.

 

[Yassa]

140 kg at birth is not abnormally large. For a male calf, thats pretty standard.