Thylacines are still extinct

[Jurek7]

Thylacines in New Guinea have some probability of being real - not because the sightings were especially good, but because they were not yet disproved, and other large animals were recently discovered in New Guinea.

Australia has one more real 'cryptid' animal - long-beaked echidna, for which there is a specimen apparently from mainland Australia. I wonder why little attention is given to the mainland long-beaked echidna, which is arguably not less interesting than thylacine?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Thylacines in New Guinea have some probability of being real - not because the sightings were especially good, but because they were not yet disproved, and other large animals were recently discovered in New Guinea.

Australia has one more real 'cryptid' animal - long-beaked echidna, for which there is a specimen apparently from mainland Australia. I wonder why little attention is given to the mainland long-beaked echidna, which is arguably not less interesting than thylacine?

Correct me if I'm wrong but sightings of the thylacine in PNG have come from Australians and not indigenous peoples right ?

I'm sure if the thylacine was still roaming the forests then at least one of the hundreds of ethnic groups in PNG (excluding those that are uncontacted or eschew the modern world) would be talking about it or would have talked about it historically with colonialists or explorers or anthropologists.

These are people with an exceptional knowledge of their environment and flora and fauna and if they are not talking about an animal that resembles a thylacine then the likelihood of it being there is either near zero or just a fantasy / wishful thinking.

 

[Pertinax]

Moreover I think that the expedition leaders seemed to be earnest and unpretentious men of science or the outdoors and wouldn't have falsified reports for fame or credibility or whatever.

Definately true. In the cases of Fleming and Fleay, the animal was very possibly not(quite) extinct by the time of their searches- in both cases the intention seemed merely to ascertain its assumed 'continued' existence, rather than 'proving' it still existed. In the late '40's Fleay was even attempting to catch a pair for a captive breeding project. Albeit the idea this was still possible was based on false hope perhaps, though at that time nobody realised that it might already be too late. Hence the 'sign'- tracks, scats etc were also, and perhaps also incorrectly, assumed to be evidence of their continued existence too.

Guiler's searches came rather later, in the 1960's. He too was convinced it still existed and had a personal crusade over many years to prove that, but he approached it quietly and scientifically and was the leading expert of his generation. In his later writings one detected a degree of doubt however. He died without ever having the satisfaction of achieving his goal. I met him once and he showed me the Thylacine's head he owned- it has since disappeared.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Definately true. In the cases of Fleming and Fleay, the animal was very possibly not(quite) extinct by the time of their searches- in both cases the intention seemed merely to ascertain its assumed 'continued' existence, rather than 'proving' it still existed. In the late '40's Fleay was even attempting to catch a pair for a captive breeding project. Albeit the idea this was still possible was based on false hope perhaps, though at that time nobody realised that it might already be too late. Hence the 'sign'- tracks, scats etc were also, and perhaps also incorrectly, assumed to be evidence of their continued existence too.

Guiler's searches came rather later, in the 1960's. He too was convinced it still existed and had a personal crusade over many years to prove that, but he approached it quietly and scientifically and was the leading expert of his generation. In his later writings one detected a degree of doubt however. He died without ever having the satisfaction of achieving his goal. I met him once and he showed me the Thylacine's head he owned- it has since disappeared.

Totally agree that both Fleay and Flemming seem to have been objective and measured in terms of the findings and intentions of their expeditions or at least that is the impression that I get from them from reading.

I also agree with you that the optimistic interpretation of the tracks they found may have been a product of the time as Tasmania at that point had far more untouched wildernesses areas and ecology and conservation were either still in their infancy or barely even nascent.

I do think that as you say Guiler had a crusade mentality towards proving the existence of the thylacine but also agree with you that he was indeed an expert and a man of science and that this should be recognised. He definitely puts many of the "thylacine hunters" on YouTube today to shame in this respect.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Definately true. In the cases of Fleming and Fleay, the animal was very possibly not(quite) extinct by the time of their searches- in both cases the intention seemed merely to ascertain its assumed 'continued' existence, rather than 'proving' it still existed. In the late '40's Fleay was even attempting to catch a pair for a captive breeding project. Albeit the idea this was still possible was based on false hope perhaps, though at that time nobody realised that it might already be too late. Hence the 'sign'- tracks, scats etc were also, and perhaps also incorrectly, assumed to be evidence of their continued existence too.

Guiler's searches came rather later, in the 1960's. He too was convinced it still existed and had a personal crusade over many years to prove that, but he approached it quietly and scientifically and was the leading expert of his generation. In his later writings one detected a degree of doubt however. He died without ever having the satisfaction of achieving his goal. I met him once and he showed me the Thylacine's head he owned- it has since disappeared.

Regarding having met Guiler and him showing you the thylacine head.

That is incredible!

Clearly he believed it was still out there but do you remember more of the conversation you had with him and what his thoughts were on this topic ?

 

[Pertinax]

Regarding having met Guiler and him showing you the thylacine head.

That is incredible!

Clearly he believed it was still out there but do you remember more of the conversation you had with him and what his thoughts were on this topic ?

I can't remember exactly what we talked about though Thylacine-related obviously. This was in 1981. But his belief that it still persisted was still strong back then. He conducted a number of searches during the 1960's, mainly in the North West of Tasmania and centred on the large Woolnorth property which produced many Thylacines during the 'bounty' era when people were paid to produce dead ones. He deployed cameras and if I remember correctly, even snare lines!(but these were possibly not designed to catch Thylacines- even if that was what he wanted). His searches which like all the others, never produced anything tangible, were sometimes compromised by lack of funding but he would start again whenever new funds became available. He fell into the school of searchers- like all those so far- whose 'evidence' was never proven, but at the time he assumed, or wanted to think, sufficient to prove it was still in existence. Nowadays some of his writings about Thylacines in Captivity etc are known for some innacuracy, but that is mainly due to changes/improvements in the available information.

 

[Zorro]

You don't happen to remember if David Fleay referred to the Thylacine as 'Benjamin' do you? On another site we are trying to establish when the name was first used. Popular belief is that it came from an interview with a man called Frank Darby in 1968, who claimed to have looked after the last Thylacine at the zoo but the fact of his ever working there has been strongly refuted, so the name seems to have entered popular culture from that time. Another recent suggestion is that David Fleay named it from his visit, but this has so far not been backed up with any tangible evidence.

It was back in 73, I dont recall regarding names

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I can't remember exactly what we talked about though Thylacine-related obviously. This was in 1981. But his belief that it still persisted was still strong back then. He conducted a number of searches during the 1960's, mainly in the North West of Tasmania and centred on the large Woolnorth property which produced many Thylacines during the 'bounty' era when people were paid to produce dead ones. He deployed cameras and if I remember correctly, even snare lines!(but these were possibly not designed to catch Thylacines- even if that was what he wanted). His searches which like all the others, never produced anything tangible, were sometimes compromised by lack of funding but he would start again whenever new funds became available. He fell into the school of searchers- like all those so far- whose 'evidence' was never proven, but at the time he assumed, or wanted to think, sufficient to prove it was still in existence. Nowadays some of his writings about Thylacines in Captivity etc are known for some innacuracy, but that is mainly due to changes/improvements in the available information.

It must have been a fascinating conversation Indeed.

Where and how did you meet him ?

From what you've written it sounds like he was a very interesting character and clearly had an indomitable drive to find evidence of the thylacine but without losing scientific objectivity in this mission of his.

I think that like Fleay he is another character that I would have loved to have met and talked to.

 

[Batto]

I wonder why little attention is given to the mainland long-beaked echidna, which is arguably not less interesting than thylacine?

Because the thylacine has a very peculiar, mystical status among people that want it to be still alive. #Iwanttobelieve

 

[TheMightyOrca]

I think it's mostly because people WANT them to still be alive. It's exciting to believe that an "extinct" species is actually still out there, especially if it's a particularly charismatic and cool-looking animal. I'd be lying if I said I never fantasized about seeing an ivory-billed woodpecker on my nature walks, lol.

When I was in middle school I was into things like cryptids and aliens, and extinct species still being around. But it didn't take long for me to admit to myself that there was no legit evidence for these things, I just liked the idea of those things being real.

And I think with extinct species, there's another layer of it. Humankind has done so much irreversible damage to the environment, it's a nice idea to think that we can still salvage something that we thought was lost. Death can be hard to accept, especially if it was at our hands. I think a lot of people have a hard time coming to terms with the damage that has been done, and is being done, to the planet. If the thylacine is still alive, that would be a sign of hope.

 

[Zorro]

It must have been a fascinating conversation Indeed.

Where and how did you meet him ?

From what you've written it sounds like he was a very interesting character and clearly had an indomitable drive to find evidence of the thylacine but without losing scientific objectivity in this mission of his.

I think that like Fleay he is another character that I would have loved to have met and talked to.

I saw him at his Fleays Wildlife park at Burleigh Heads in Queensland.
Yes he was very interesting to talk to a wonderful man. A couple of things that stood out for me was the many Victoria Crown Pigeons at every turn it was amazing!. Also getting shown close up of the Platypus when he had asked one of his staff to show me the mature pair there.
They had a few Giant Tortoises there which I took a few photos of with one of them going on later to Australia zoo. I believe this one only passed away a couple of years ago!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I saw him at his Fleays Wildlife park at Burleigh Heads in Queensland.
Yes he was very interesting to talk to a wonderful man. A couple of things that stood out for me was the many Victoria Crown Pigeons at every turn it was amazing!. Also getting shown close up of the Platypus when he had asked one of his staff to show me the mature pair there.
They had a few Giant Tortoises there which I took a few photos of with one of them going on later to Australia zoo. I believe this one only passed away a couple of years ago!

It's incredible to have met a living witness of the thylacine ! I mean it bit him too !

If I was speaking with him I would probably ask him to describe his memories of that encounter at Hobart zoo over and over and end up annoying him !

Are there any videos of him out there talking about the thylacine ?

Regarding the Galapagos giant tortoise yes I think this animal was a female called "Harriet" if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Zorro]

It's incredible to have met a living witness of the thylacine ! I mean it bit him too !

If I was speaking with him I would probably ask him to describe his memories of that encounter at Hobart zoo over and over and end up annoying him !

Are there any videos of him out there talking about the thylacine ?

Regarding the Galapagos giant tortoise yes I think this animal was a female called "Harriet" if I'm not mistaken.

One can only fit in so much when talking to someone plus he would of been busy tending his animals!. I do not know about what videos there might be around if any, Perhaps an internet search may help you. Yes I do believe that was Harriet that was moved to Australia zoo.
I did read a few years ago of two trips he had made to Tasmania with his family after the war in the search for any Thylacine. I believe with a little searching you could find it also.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

One can only fit in so much when talking to someone plus he would of been busy tending his animals!. I do not know about what videos there might be around if any, Perhaps an internet search may help you. Yes I do believe that was Harriet that was moved to Australia zoo.
I did read a few years ago of two trips he had made to Tasmania with his family after the war in the search for any Thylacine. I believe with a little searching you could find it also.

Will definitely have a look and post back what I find into this thread.

I think I've seen footage of Guiler speaking on the thylacine but never Fleay or Flemming.

I've read a bit about him and his expeditions on the online Thylacine museum but it would be brilliant to put a voice to him and hear him speak.

 

[Pertinax]

I think I've seen footage of Guiler speaking on the thylacine but never Fleay or Flemming.

I've read a bit about him and his expeditions on the online Thylacine museum but it would be brilliant to put a voice to him and hear him speak.

There are several interviews with Guiler recorded on film. Nothing of Fleay or Fleming that I know of, at least relating to the Thylacine. But Fleay's record of his filming encounter with the last one at the Hobart zoo is included in his daughter's book 'Animals Come First'. Most of the relevant comments are included in the Thylacine Museum chapter on the 'last' Thylacine too. They are sadly, rather brief, but even so they represent the most detailed observations on a living one made by a scientifically-trained observer, so are doubly valuable for that reason.

 

[Batto]

if it's a particularly charismatic and cool-looking animal.

Funny enough, that charisma seems to have been lost on the zoo visitors and zoo people back then. Berlin zoo director Ludwig Heck, nowadays infamous for being a beneficiary and racist supporter of the Nazi regime, described the thylacines he kept at the zoo quite disparagingly as mentally dull and inferior to canids. Well, that could be contributed to the contemporary zeitgeist - and that they were not seen as something special. The interest in them grew when people realized that they were "running short" of the species - a phenomenon you can still see with animals to this very day. The modern romantization of the species kinda makes us forget that if the thylacine was still alive and common both in the wild and zoos, they wouldn't probably rank high in favor even here among zoo nerds.

 

[Pertinax]

James Aldis who was a head keeper at ZSL in the North Mammal House where the last Thylacine at London Zoo (from 1926-31) was kept, was equally disparaging. He spared just a few lines in his book about the dull and sullen animal under his charge and made no effort to paint an interesting picture of it.

Alison Reid at Hobart Zoo mentioned how the Thylacines were largely ignored by visitors as being merely 'local' animals, so not worthy of much attention. Interest in the species seemed to increase in direct proportion to its rarity, but even more so once it became completely unobtainable any more.

I am quite certain that if they were still alive today interest would be on a par with the Tasmanian Devil. But if it was common in zoos, level of interest would be even further down the scale.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Funny enough, that charisma seems to have been lost on the zoo visitors and zoo people back then. Berlin zoo director Ludwig Heck, nowadays infamous for being a beneficiary and racist supporter of the Nazi regime, described the thylacines he kept at the zoo quite disparagingly as mentally dull and inferior to canids. Well, that could be contributed to the contemporary zeitgeist - and that they were not seen as something special. The interest in them grew when people realized that they were "running short" of the species - a phenomenon you can still see with animals to this very day. The modern romantization of the species kinda makes us forget that if the thylacine was still alive and common both in the wild and zoos, they wouldn't probably rank high in favor even here among zoo nerds.

James Aldis who was a head keeper at ZSL in the North Mammal House where the last Thylacine at London Zoo (from 1926-31) was kept, was equally disparaging. He spared just a few lines in his book about the dull and sullen animal under his charge and made no effort to paint an interesting picture of it.

Alison Reid at Hobart Zoo mentioned how the Thylacines were largely ignored by visitors as being merely 'local' animals, so not worthy of much attention. Interest in the species seemed to increase in direct proportion to its rarity, but even more so once it became completely unobtainable any more.

I am quite certain that if they were still alive today interest would be on a par with the Tasmanian Devil. But if it was common in zoos, level of interest would be even further down the scale.

Most definitely agree with you both that the thylacine was not considered charismatic or even interesting when it was still obtainable and that once it wasn't a scarcity value became attached and then with extinction fame and interest and the rest.

 

[Batto]

I am quite certain that if they were still alive today interest would be on a par with the Tasmanian Devil.

I agree, with the Tasmanian Devil potentially even being the more popular species due to Looney Toons, the catchy name and its cheeky nature.

@Onychorhynchus coronatus: people treasure what they can't have.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

@Onychorhynchus coronatus: people treasure what they can't have.

Totally agree and I would add mourn /pine over and value what they have lost when it was never valued prior to its disappearance.