Chester Zoo Chester Zoo elephant herd breeding

[The Hedgehog]

MODERATOR NOTE: Posts moved from Thread Chester Zoo News 2021 [Chester Zoo]

As Indali Hi-Way the juvenile Asian Elephant survived EEHV,does this mean her body has made antibodies against it? @bintarong ,@Elephant Enthusiast and @Elephantelephant can you please answer my question? I guess that Indali does have Antibiotics as EEHV rarely strikes an individual twice and if it does the Elephant in question survives. Farha at Zurich Zoo, Scott at Whipsnade Zoo and Tarli at Woburn Safari Park have all survived EEHV without relapsing? Meanwhile Jade and Maliha at St Louis Zoo have both relapsed once and survived.

 

[Embu]

@The Hedgehog you are correct with that Indali has survived EEHV, however there are believed to be different strains of the virus (from what I've gathered). If this is true then Indali may be protected from just the specific strain she contracted or maybe immune to EEHV completely, I'm not sure. As you have stated individuals may relapse so even though its a fantastic achievement for all involved, I would presume that Indali will be closely monitered for a couple years yet.

 

[The Hedgehog]

@The Hedgehog you are correct with that Indali has survived EEHV, however there are believed to be different strains of the virus (from what I've gathered). If this is true then Indali may be protected from just the specific strain she contracted or maybe immune to EEHV completely, I'm not sure. As you have stated individuals may relapse so even though its a fantastic achievement for all involved, I would presume that Indali will be closely monitered for a couple years yet.

@Embu it is brilliant news that Indali is at least immune to one strain of EEHV and possibly all strains. @Embu all of the Elephants that have contracted EEHV at Chester Zoo have all had the same strain. With this in mind Indali should be immune and go on to live a long and healthy life, and become a Mum one day. @Embu when Indali is an adult will she still reside at Chester or will they move her so she does not breed with her Dad Aung-Bo? Personally I hope that Indali can become a future breeding female at Chester along with her younger sister Riva. It would be a bright future for the Hi-Way family if Sundara and her daughters remained at Chester as breeding females. I hope that Anjan and Aung-Bo are the ones to eventually move on. It’s paramount that Anjan moves on to become a breeding Bull as he is one of only two surviving children from Thai,the other being his elder brother Assam. @Embu judging from past experiences of young Bull Elephants across Europe Anjan’s future will probably have to be moved within the next couple of years.

 

[Embu]

Female elephants very rarely leave their maternal herd, why would you think that Sundara or her 2 daughters(and any future daughters) would ever leave? Anjan isn't yet 3 years old so is a way off (at least 2 years or maybe longer). Aung Bo will leave eventually i persume but as we all know the future of Chester's herd relies on Sundara now, so hopefully she will have at least another 3 daughters but has a long breeding life ahead of her as she's only just turned 17 years old. She could well produce another 3/4 calves before she turns 30.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Female elephants very rarely leave their maternal herd, why would you think that Sundara or her 2 daughters(and any future daughters) would ever leave? Anjan isn't yet 3 years old so is a way off (at least 2 years or maybe longer). Aung Bo will leave eventually i persume but as we all know the future of Chester's herd relies on Sundara now, so hopefully she will have at least another 3 daughters but has a long breeding life ahead of her as she's only just turned 17 years old. She could well produce another 3/4 calves before she turns 30.

@Embu I know that females rarely leave their Material herd. I was saying that I hope Chester is not the exception to the rule and do not move Indali or Riva to another herd elsewhere. I would love Sundara,Indali and Riva to become the basis of a new herd. In my opinion Anjan and Aung Bo should eventually be relocated,to make way for a new breeding Bull that could breed with the mentioned Cowes.

 

[Embu]

@Embu I know that females rarely leave their Material herd. I was saying that I hope Chester is not the exception to the rule and do not move Indali or Riva to another herd elsewhere. I would love Sundara,Indali and Riva to become the basis of a new herd. In my opinion Anjan and Aung Bo should eventually be relocated,to make way for a new breeding Bull that could breed with the mentioned Cowes.

You're overthinking this by the looks of things. As I've already stated Aung Bo and Anjan will move eventually but not for a couple of years I wouldn't expect.

I think you can be rest assured that Sundara,Indali & Riva will only leave here( and not for a few years) in an elephant sized box or bag

 

[Jambo]

@Embu I know that females rarely leave their Material herd. I was saying that I hope Chester is not the exception to the rule and do not move Indali or Riva to another herd elsewhere. I would love Sundara,Indali and Riva to become the basis of a new herd. In my opinion Anjan and Aung Bo should eventually be relocated,to make way for a new breeding Bull that could breed with the mentioned Cowes.

Chester will definitely not separate either Riva or Indali from their mother, Sundara. These three cows at the moment are the foundation of Chester’s breeding program leading into the future.

Sundara is only 16, and could theoretically have at least another six calves, with three year age gaps, before she is post reproductive. This, alongside calves from Indali and Riva when they come of age, will be enough to sustain the herd for years to come; of course, hoping EEHV doesn't continue to strike Chester like it has in the past.

In my opinion Anjan and Aung Bo should eventually be relocated,to make way for a new breeding Bull that could breed with the mentioned Cowes.

Anjan will most certainly leave when he is old enough to. He’s not even three yet so he will remain in the herd for at least another three or four years.

Aung Bo meanwhile, will have to leave as well, to allow Indali and Riva to be able to breed. Theoretically, Sundara could breed twice more with Aung Bo, before he should be moved. By this time, Anjan will have left the herd and Indali will be reaching her reproductive age.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Chester will definitely not separate either Riva or Indali from their mother, Sundara. These three cows at the moment are the foundation of Chester’s breeding program leading into the future.

Sundara is only 16, and could theoretically have at least another six calves, with three year age gaps, before she is post reproductive. This, alongside calves from Indali and Riva when they come of age, will be enough to sustain the herd for years to come; of course, hoping EEHV doesn't continue to strike Chester like it has in the past.



Anjan will most certainly leave when he is old enough to. He’s not even three yet so he will remain in the herd for at least another three or four years.

Aung Bo meanwhile, will have to leave as well, to allow Indali and Riva to be able to breed. Theoretically, Sundara could breed twice more with Aung Bo, before he should be moved. By this time, Anjan will have left the herd and Indali will be reaching her reproductive age.

@Jambo if Indali is anything like her late Grandma Sithami she could become pregnant within the next year to 18 moths.This is my reasoning for Aung Bo departing Chester Zoo in the near future. If Indali did become pregnant through a mating with her Dad Aung Bo it would be very bad publicity for Chester Zoo.Especially as there has been one incestuous birth at Chester.In 2012 Sundara the Daughter of Sithtami and Upali gave birth to a Bull calf that was sired by her Dad Upali. The baby Bull was named Hari and sadly died of EEHV aged 3 in 2015.

 

[Jambo]

@Jambo if Indali is anything like her late Grandma Sithami she could become pregnant within the next year to 18 moths.This is my reasoning for Aung Bo departing Chester Zoo in the near future. If Indali did become pregnant through a mating with her Dad Aung Bo it would be very bad publicity for Chester Zoo.Especially as there has been one incestuous birth at Chester.In 2012 Sundara the Daughter of Sithtami and Upali gave birth to a Bull calf that was sired by her Dad Upali. The baby Bull was named Hari and sadly died of EEHV aged 3 in 2015.

Indali is currently four and I find it highly unlikely she’ll fall pregnant or Chester will allow her to, within the next eighteen months.

Her grandmother, Sithami fell pregnant at four years and five months of age, to another young male, Upali, who was seven at the time. Both were rather young first time parents.

Sundara, in turn, conceived at the age of seven to her own father. It was widely believed that Sundara’s father at the time was Chang, who was also her grandfather, so the zoo allowed her to breed with Upali. Later, it was discovered Upali was actually Sundara’s father, but by this time it was too late and she was already pregnant with Hari. This was the reason Upali was sent to Dublin very soon after.

The inbreeding of Indali and her father can be avoided. The Chester zoo can easily monitor when Indali’s cycling and then make sure she is separated from Aung Bo when this is happening. This could be done for the next few years up until Aung Bo is sent away.

 

[Indlovu]

If Indali did become pregnant through a mating with her Dad Aung Bo it would be very bad publicity for Chester Zoo.Especially as there has been one incestuous birth at Chester.In 2012 Sundara the Daughter of Sithtami and Upali gave birth to a Bull calf that was sired by her Dad Upali.

On the contrary, I doubt the press would be remotely interested. Given that both Sundara and Hari were thought, at the time of their birth, to be the result of father-daughter matings (although of course we later learned that Sundara was sired by Upali, not Chang) neither of these attracted negative publicity. Limited inbreeding such as this is sometimes allowed to happen in captive breeding programmes, and indeed can, where necessary, be an important part of a well-managed programme.

Not that there is any realistic prospect of the situation you describe materialising. As other members have suggested, I don’t really see any reason for speculation about the unlikely scenarios you have raised about Chester’s elephant herd.

 

[The Hedgehog]

On the contrary, I doubt the press would be remotely interested. Given that both Sundara and Hari were thought, at the time of their birth, to be the result of father-daughter matings (although of course we later learned that Sundara was sired by Upali, not Chang) neither of these attracted negative publicity. Limited inbreeding such as this is sometimes allowed to happen in captive breeding programmes, and indeed can, where necessary, be an important part of a well-managed programme.

Not that there is any realistic prospect of the situation you describe materialising. As other members have suggested, I don’t really see any reason for speculation about the unlikely scenarios you have raised about Chester’s elephant herd.

@Indlovu it is very irresponsible for any holders of Elephants to allow them to interbreed. As your probably aware inbreeding normally results in physical or mental disabilities. Inbreeding pollutes the captive Elephant gene pool. Imagine if your Child or another family member had a baby with someone within your family,I bet you would find it disgusting. If you think incest within humans is obscene how is it different for Elephants or any other species.
In a way I think it is a blessing that Hari died of EEHV when he did. Eventually he would have become a breeding Bull and dirtied the Asian Elephant breeding program further. By the way @Indlovu Hari wasn’t thought to have been the result of a Father Daughter mating he was the result of a Father Daughter mating.Had Hari had survived to adulthood he would most probably have had a shortened lifespan due to his parents being Father and Daughter.

 

[Embu]

@The Hedgehog you hurt my head sometimes.......

 

[Jambo]

@Indlovu it is very irresponsible for any holders of Elephants to allow them to interbreed. As your probably aware inbreeding normally results in physical or mental disabilities. Inbreeding pollutes the captive Elephant gene pool. Imagine if your Child or another family member had a baby with someone within your family,I bet you would find it disgusting. If you think incest within humans is obscene how is it different for Elephants or any other species. In a way I think it is a blessing that Hari died of EEHV when he did,as eventually he would have become a breeding Bull and dirtied the Asian Elephant breeding program further.

@The Hedgehog your theories are very off target here.

Chester, by all means, are not ‘planning’ to breed Indali with her her father, Aung Bo. As I said, the birth of Hari was not planned as it was believed at the time Sundara wasn’t related to Upali, when in fact, he was her father, as they later found out.

I think the fact that your saying Hari was better of dead than alive is very disrespectful. Though many inbreed animals have shown physical and mental disabilities; Hari was not like this. He was a very healthy and normal calf, physically and mentally.

In the situation where Hari grew up to be a bull; Hari would have not been bred from. He would most likely have been moved to a bachelor herd, where he would live out his life.

And on another note, how has inbreeding with elephants got to do with inbreeding with humans?

 

[Embu]

@The Hedgehog maybe do some more research on the elephant herd. I agree with @Jambo that it is disrespectful to any Chester keepers readng this. Please think how your comments are read and who by. I doubt that we need to carry on this conversation

 

[Maguari]

@Indlovu it is very irresponsible for any holders of Elephants to allow them to interbreed. As your probably aware inbreeding normally results in physical or mental disabilities. Inbreeding pollutes the captive Elephant gene pool. Imagine if your Child or another family member had a baby with someone within your family,I bet you would find it disgusting. If you think incest within humans is obscene how is it different for Elephants or any other species.
In a way I think it is a blessing that Hari died of EEHV when he did. Eventually he would have become a breeding Bull and dirtied the Asian Elephant breeding program further. By the way @Indlovu Hari wasn’t thought to have been the result of a Father Daughter mating he was the result of a Father Daughter mating.Had Hari had survived to adulthood he would most probably have had a shortened lifespan due to his parents being Father and Daughter.

@The Hedgehog maybe do some more research on the elephant herd. I agree with @Jambo that it is disrespectful to any Chester keepers readng this. Please think how your comments are read and who by. I doubt that we need to carry on this conversation

Indeed, @Embu . Also, the suggestion that animals are best to die young just because they aren't 100% genetically or developmentally 'perfect' is potentially horrendously offensive and upsetting - particularly as parallels with human society have been explicitly drawn in the same post and the word 'disabilities' introduced.

 

[The Hedgehog]

@Maguari please do not accuse me of being disrespectful to disabled people,as I am disabled myself. Note my Genetic Condition 10 Q Deletion Syndrome was not caused by insest. As for you @Jambo I never implied that Chester Zoo were planning to have Aung Bo breed with Indali. I was merely saying that Aung Bo should be moved on before an ACCIDENT occurs. I admire the work that Chester Zoo does and that kindness the Zookeepers show to the animals in their care. Due to this I am definitely not slandering Chester Zoo in any way,shape or form!!

 

[The Hedgehog]

You're overthinking this by the looks of things. As I've already stated Aung Bo and Anjan will move eventually but not for a couple of years I wouldn't expect.

I think you can be rest assured that Sundara,Indali & Riva will only leave here( and not for a few years) in an elephant sized box or bag

@Embu when you state that Sundara,Indali and Riva will only leave Chester in a bag or box are you eloquently saying when they pass away?

 

[The Hedgehog]

@bintarong USER=15978]@Elephantelephant[/USER] and @Elephant Enthusiast do you think that Sundara the Asian Elephant is identical to her late Mother Sithtami? Personally I think the older Sundara gets the more like Sithtami she appears. Additionally could you please read my posts from the last 2 pages of this thread and give me your honest opinion of them?

 

[Maguari]

@Maguari please do not accuse me of being disrespectful to disabled people,as I am disabled myself. Note my Genetic Condition 10 Q Deletion Syndrome was not caused by insest. As for you @Jambo I never implied that Chester Zoo were planning to have Aung Bo breed with Indali. I was merely saying that Aung Bo should be moved on before an ACCIDENT occurs. I admire the work that Chester Zoo does and that kindness the Zookeepers show to the animals in their care. Due to this I am definitely not slandering Chester Zoo in any way,shape or form!!

For the record, I'm not accusing you of being deliberately disrespectful, I just meant that your particular choice of words meant your message was capable of being read that way and we should steer the conversation away from that suggestion. Of course incest has nothing do with any but a theoretical tiny fraction of human disabilities - that wasn't my meaning at all.

 

[SHAVINGTONZOO]

@Indlovu it is very irresponsible for any holders of Elephants to allow them to interbreed. As your probably aware inbreeding normally results in physical or mental disabilities. Inbreeding pollutes the captive Elephant gene pool. Imagine if your Child or another family member had a baby with someone within your family,I bet you would find it disgusting. If you think incest within humans is obscene how is it different for Elephants or any other species.
In a way I think it is a blessing that Hari died of EEHV when he did. Eventually he would have become a breeding Bull and dirtied the Asian Elephant breeding program further. By the way @Indlovu Hari wasn’t thought to have been the result of a Father Daughter mating he was the result of a Father Daughter mating.Had Hari had survived to adulthood he would most probably have had a shortened lifespan due to his parents being Father and Daughter.

The above posting is largely nonsense, highlighted by the confusion between interbreeding and inbreeding
.
Inbreeding is best avoided but "very irresponsible" is overstating the issue.

It does not "normally" result in "physical or mental disabilities". Indeed it is widely used in domestic animals, in populations which will already be inbred to a degree.

What does "pollute" even mean in this context?

Human disgust at intra-family reproduction is irrelevant. How is incest different in other species? Because we do not apply human morality to other species.

How would Hari have "dirtied" anything had he been used as an outcross sire?

Do you have any evidence that the products of father/daughter matings "probably" have shortened lifespans?