Mixed species exhibit with Chimpanzees?

Zoofan15 said:
From what I’ve read on here, it was quite an evolution in reactions from the chimpanzees. First was a fear/wariness of the jackals, which nipped at the chimps ankles; then they became a null stimulus to the troop, with the juveniles and adolescents regarding them as a plaything; then finally, one was killed by the chimps - either through natural chimpanzee aggression; or possibly fear/retaliation (less likely).
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I would imagine that the initial reaction of fear / wariness went some way to the zoo deciding to keep on with the mix.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I would imagine that the initial reaction of fear / wariness went some way to the zoo deciding to keep on with the mix.
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That’s possible, though it’d be concerning if the aim of a mixed species exhibit was merely to find two species which tolerated each other (by not killing each other) by virtue of mutual fear.

Species which gain mutual benefit from each other’s company is the ideal and you may have hit the nail on the head by describing the interaction of the young chimp and the jackal as avoidance (as opposed to how the media describes it). It’s possible Taronga misread their interactions.

Only a few years prior, Melbourne Zoo described their female chimpanzee Molly in a photo as grinning with delight as children clamoured to see her infant (who they described as fearful). Conversely, it’s obvious (knowing what we know now about chimpanzee facial expressions) that the infant was in fact curious; while Molly was bearing her teeth in rage.
 
Zoofan15 said:
That’s possible, though it’d be concerning if the aim of a mixed species exhibit was merely to find two species which tolerated each other (by not killing each other) by virtue of mutual fear.

Species which gain mutual benefit from each other’s company is the ideal and you may have hit the nail on the head by describing the interaction of the young chimp and the jackal as avoidance (as opposed to how the media describes it). It’s possible Taronga misread their interactions.

Only a few years prior, Melbourne Zoo described their female chimpanzee Molly in a photo as grinning with delight as children clamoured to see her infant (who they described as fearful). Conversely, it’s obvious (knowing what we know now about chimpanzee facial expressions) that the infant was in fact curious; while Molly was bearing her teeth in rage.
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I agree, and not in the defence of Taronga for this stupidity of a mixed-species exhibit but I think that in the 1980's there was probably a very differently mentality towards and baseline level of knowlege of chimpanzees in captivity in general.

I suppose that this was because the species had been kept largely in such inadequate conditions prior to this in zoos and survived and this was probably mistaken for these animals thriving.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I agree, and not in the defence of Taronga for this stupidity of a mixed-species exhibit but I think that in the 1980's there was probably a very differently mentality towards and baseline level of knowlege of chimpanzees in captivity in general.

I suppose that this was because the species had been kept largely in such inadequate conditions prior to this and survived and this was probably mistaken for these animals thriving.
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That’s true. The current chimpanzee exhibit had recently opened (1980) and was ground breaking for it’s time as a large, open air exhibit.

The chimps had previously lived in a series of interconnected cages; and prior to that, had lived in pairs in cramped single cages.

I believe Jane Goodall’s work had an influence, as it was around this time they moved to housing the chimps as a colony.
 
Zoofan15 said:
That’s true. The current chimpanzee exhibit had recently opened (1980) and was ground breaking for it’s time as a large, open air exhibit.

The chimps had previously lived in a series of interconnected cages; and prior to that, had lived in pairs in cramped single cages.

I believe Jane Goodall’s work had an influence, as it was around this time they moved to housing the chimps as a colony.
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Perhaps it was the spirit of the times, things were changing in zoos in general and the exhibitry of these great apes too and Taronga zoo got maybe a little bit too ambitious with the mixed-species concept.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Perhaps it was the spirit of the times, things were changing in zoos in general and the exhibitry of these great apes too and Taronga zoo got maybe a little bit too ambitious with the mixed-species concept.
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Quite possibly yes. Jane Goodall’s studies certainly shone a light on the lesser known aspects of chimpanzee society, which were numerous at the time; and being simultaneously discovered at Taronga. Instances of infanticide between rival females; and of course that chimpanzees routinely hunt monkeys etc.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Quite possibly yes. Jane Goodall’s studies certainly shone a light on the lesser known aspects of chimpanzee society, which were numerous at the time; and being simultaneously discovered at Taronga. Instances of infanticide between rival females; and of course that chimpanzees routinely hunt monkeys etc.
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You would think though that the revelations by Goodall that chimps hunt monkeys, bushbuck fawns and bushpig pigletts would perhaps be enough to discourage the jackal idea though.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
You would think though that the revelations by Goodall that chimps hunt monkeys, bushbuck fawns and bushpig pigletts would perhaps be enough to discourage the jackal idea though.
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I get the impression the jackals were seen as the happy (or in this case unhappy) medium in that they wouldn’t kill the chimpanzees outright (as would a big cat); nor would they fall instant prey like a monkey or baby ungulate.

Ultimately the balance could have been adjusted by numbers. A large pack of jackals would likely have taken out a juvenile or infant chimp at some stage; but as a pair, they were outnumbered by the 20 strong community of chimps.

Just what is the correct ratio of chimps to jackals? I wouldn’t like to find out. :p
 
Zoofan15 said:
I get the impression the jackals were seen as the happy (or in this case unhappy) medium in that they wouldn’t kill the chimpanzees outright (as would a big cat); nor would they fall instant prey like a monkey or baby ungulate.

Ultimately the balance could have been adjusted by numbers. A large pack of jackals would likely have taken out a juvenile or infant chimp at some stage; but as a pair, they were outnumbered by the 20 strong community of chimps.

Just what is the correct ratio of chimps to jackals? I wouldn’t like to find out. :p
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Yes, you are probably right.

I think the correct ratio would be 0 jackals, lol :p
 
Several decades ago, I watched an adult male fallow deer enter the chimp island exhibit in an American zoo (can't remember which one; somewhere in Florida). I will never forget the brief but powerful moment when the chimps detected him, silently sneaked up on and hunted him through the tall grass. And how he barely escaped, by jumping right into the moat, with the chimps breathing down his neck. This and other incidents have cemented in me the opinion that some species are not meant to be mixed together with other species.
Maybe cape / forest buffalo and chimps, like the buffalo / baboon mix at Zoo Augsburg, might work for a while. As long as there would be no offspring on both sides. But I wouldn't dare to try it.
 
Batto said:
Several decades ago, I watched an adult male fallow deer enter the chimp island exhibit in an American zoo (can't remember which one; somewhere in Florida). I will never forget the brief but powerful moment when the chimps detected him, silently sneaked up on and hunted him through the tall grass. And how he barely escaped, by jumping right into the moat, with the chimps breathing down his neck. This and other incidents have cemented in me the opinion that some species are not meant to be mixed together with other species.
Maybe cape / forest buffalo and chimps, like the buffalo / baboon mix at Zoo Augsburg, might work for a while. As long as there would be no offspring on both sides. But I wouldn't dare to try it.
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Did you actually see this in person @Batto or was this captured on footage somewhere?
 
I saw it with my very own eyes. Long before smartphones were omnipresent.

In fact:
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Megaderma lyra squeezed into a CT. I watched light glitter on the hood of a freshly shed Sri Lankan cobra. All those moments will be lost in time, like crocodile tears in the rain.
Time to take a nap.

^^
 
Batto said:
I saw it with my very own eyes. Long before smartphones were omnipresent.

In fact:
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Megaderma lyra hunting in the basement of a laboratory. I watched light glitter on the hood of a freshly shed Sri Lankan cobra. All those moments will be lost in time, like crocodile tears in the rain.
Time to take a nap.

^^
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Spoken like a latter day William Blake
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Bladerunner :D
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What took you so long? ^^
BWKSvQtpUS226xHy7G
 
Batto said:
Maybe cape / forest buffalo and chimps, like the buffalo / baboon mix at Zoo Augsburg, might work for a while. As long as there would be no offspring on both sides. But I wouldn't dare to try it.
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I think forest buffs are about the ideal size to safely run with chimps. But you would need a massive exhibit to do it justice/safely. Barriers which would keep both in would be interesting.
 
tetrapod said:
I think forest buffs are about the ideal size to safely run with chimps. But you would need a massive exhibit to do it justice/safely. Barriers which would keep both in would be interesting.
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Wouldn't the chimpanzees antagonise the buffalo in some way ?

Somehow I can imagine even forest buffalo being targeted by an alpha male chimpanzee.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Only a few years prior, Melbourne Zoo described their female chimpanzee Molly in a photo as grinning with delight as children clamoured to see her infant (who they described as fearful). Conversely, it’s obvious (knowing what we know now about chimpanzee facial expressions) that the infant was in fact curious; while Molly was bearing her teeth in rage.
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I believe the bared teeth 'grin' in Chimpanzees denotes fear rather than rage, it is sometimes referred to as the 'fear grin.' There are many older style photos and novelty postcards showing dressed young chimps 'grinning' like this- in fact they were obviously frightened/coerced for the photo sessions to behave like that. The 'space chimpanzee' "Ham' showed similar behaviour in press photos too.

On the other hand, in a Mandrill, grimacing and baring the teeth,with an accompanying head shake is a friendly gesture- I mean you no harm.
 
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